The sound of one hand clapping.

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by rwh
Aren't there at least two centers -- i.e, one center for the motion of the body and one center for the arc of the clubhead?

In general, with moving linked segments, the distal parts can have very complicate trajectories. The proximal parts, being closer to the innermost pivot/hinge/axis, will describe motions more prone to approximate circular motion.

For instance, the shoulder joint motions will be close to a circle around the spine axis, on their plane of motion. The hands will describe a motion through space still reasonable close to a circle, if there is not too much lateral/vertical body/hand motion.

The most distal part however, the clubhead, can describe a more complicated motion through space. Looking for the lead shoulder joint to be the center for the clubhead trajectory is not very logical and leads to all these discussions.

When finding some time I will put these notions systematically together so that people can make up their own mind instead of having to rely on this continuous simplistic reference to the lead shoulder as the final and definite answer.

 

[TGMfan]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

When finding some time I will put these notions systematically together so that people can make up their own mind instead of having to rely on this continuous simplistic reference to the lead shoulder as the final and definite answer.

Mandrin,

Do what you can, but please try to maintain a flat left wrist - at least through Impact and Low Point.

 

[David Alford]

MizunoJoe wrote:

<I knew that was coming David. And then what, The Queen, Prince Charles, and Harry must post up before you do? >

I'll post my swing shortly after Xmas. Since you didn't say "no", I'll take your reply to mean you're just
waiting for mine before you post yours. Good. Now see if you can talk your buddy, 6BEE, to do the same. I'm sure
everyone will agree, this is only fair.

 

[TGMfan]

quote:Originally posted by rwh

Aren't there at least two centers -- i.e, one center for the motion of the body and one center for the arc of the clubhead?

rwh,

The question isn't about finding the center of motion of either. It's about finding the point at which the Primary Lever Assembly is the longest (relative to the ground). The left shoulder is clearly not the center of rotation in this study of Bobby Jones.

http://www.clubmaker-online.com/bj004.html

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by TGMfan

Mandrin,

Do what you can, but please try to maintain a flat left wrist - at least through Impact and Low Point.

TGMfan, my lead wrist is already so darned flat - I wonder if I am perhaps starting to cast a shadow on the famous Manzella flat wrist.

 

[palmreader]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

quote:Originally posted by TGMfan

Mandrin,

Do what you can, but please try to maintain a flat left wrist - at least through Impact and Low Point.

TGMfan, my lead wrist is already so darned flat - I wonder if I am perhaps starting to cast a shadow on the famous Manzella flat wrist.

Mandrin, You are wasting your time. People have their own ideas about how the lever assembly works during a golf swing. They have no understaning of the various indpendent motion each segment can take (shoulders, arm, club seperately can have it own center of rotation relative to others, but as a whole they all move together. They think the low point should be opposite to lead shoulder because the lever assembly is longest at stretched position opposite to lead shoulder. They conveniently forget the lead shoulder goes through its own motion. You can make the low point whereever you want it to be, but still maintain the flat left wrist, bent right wrist and all that other stuff.... Don't waste your time arguing this point because no one will agree.

 

[TGMfan]

quote:Originally posted by palmreader


Mandrin, You are wasting your time. People have their own ideas about how the lever assembly works during a golf swing. They have no understaning of the various indpendent motion each segment can take (shoulders, arm, club seperately can have it own center of rotation relative to others, but as a whole they all move together. They think the low point should be opposite to lead shoulder because the lever assembly is longest at stretched position opposite to lead shoulder. They conveniently forget the lead shoulder goes through its own motion. You can make the low point whereever you want it to be, but still maintain the flat left wrist, bent right wrist and all that other stuff.... Don't waste your time arguing this point because no one will agree.

Palmreader,

You're exactly right - all this arguing is pointless. The only real test is to take a divot and find its deepest point. That's Low Point, and that's probably the way Mr. Kelley convinced himself. The only caveat is to make sure you obey the Three Imperatives (and Three Essentials) - as Mr. Kelley would've done.

 

[rwh]

The location of the low point is a function of the loction of the center of the clubhead orbit.

You can't be dogmatic and say that the Low Point of any golf swing is always underneath the left shoulder. Mr. Kelley knew this and stated so in his book.

The swing preferred by Mr. Kelley has the right arm driving a primary lever assembly (left arm/clubshaft) that is swinging from the fulcrum (the shoulder joint). In this case, the center of the clubhead orbit is the left shoulder joint and the low point is where the lever assembly is vertical, directly beneath left shoulder joint. That is, as long as you keep a flat left wrist. If you bend the left wrist prior to low point, the left wrist becomes the center of the clubhead orbit and low point moves.

If you Right Arm Swing, the fulcrum becomes the Right Elbow and the low point of that swing is beneath the Right Elbow. Mr. Kelley discusses this in his book at page 146 (6th Edition), where he states: "The center of the Clubhead orbit is readily transferred from the Left Shoulder to the Right Elbow."

 

[Brian Manzella]

Excatly.

Mandrin showed that in a swing witha CONSTANT #4 accum.angle, and a SUPER SWEEP RELEASE, the center of the swing is the center of the shoulder turn.

But, of course, I don't teach anyone to do that.

Thanks, Mandrin.

 

[palmreader]

Thank You TGMfan. I have to come to relaize that is the only way.

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by palmreader

Mandrin, You are wasting your time. People have their own ideas about how the lever assembly works during a golf swing. They have no understaning of the various indpendent motion each segment can take (shoulders, arm, club seperately can have it own center of rotation relative to others, but as a whole they all move together. They think the low point should be opposite to lead shoulder because the lever assembly is longest at stretched position opposite to lead shoulder. They conveniently forget the lead shoulder goes through its own motion. You can make the low point whereever you want it to be, but still maintain the flat left wrist, bent right wrist and all that other stuff.... Don't waste your time arguing this point because no one will agree.

Palmreader, glad to still see someone thinking for himself. I don’t think I am wasting my time as
I find it fascinating to find a group of adults all thinking perfectly alike. I see TGMfan timidly peeking into the outside world but quickly citing Homer to show that he is still pure and orthodox and not a heretic. It is intriguing to see the ping pong game with citations of Homer and yet see Brian, their leader, never participate in this game. All in all, it is fun and entertaining.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Did you read my post Mandrin??

I gave you credit. Take it.

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Did you read my post Mandrin??

I gave you credit. Take it.

Brian, I take it with delight. I must admit that I appreciate your gritty independent spirit so unlike many of the posters. []

 

[Brian Manzella]

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

 

[David Alford]

The truth is, the most vocal supporters of TGM on this forum do NOT support independent thought if it contradicts or even if it supplements TGM. Diversity is strenght not a weakness. While a lot of people may nod their heads in agreement, in practice they don't.

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by David Alford

The truth is, the most vocal supporters of TGM on this forum do NOT support independent thought if it contradicts or even if it supplements TGM. Diversity is strenght not a weakness. While a lot of people may nod their heads in agreement, in practice they don't.

TGM really isn't a method though . . . it's a catalogue. It can explain other methods.

 

[mandrin]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Did you read my post Mandrin??
I gave you credit. Take it.

Brian, I take it with delight. I must admit that I appreciate your gritty independent spirit so unlike many of the posters. []

quote:Originally posted by brianman

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

Brian, I gave you credit. Take it. [8D]

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

quote:Originally posted by mandrin

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Did you read my post Mandrin??
I gave you credit. Take it.

Brian, I take it with delight. I must admit that I appreciate your gritty independent spirit so unlike many of the posters. []

quote:Originally posted by brianman

What the heck is that supposed to mean?

Brian, I gave you credit. Take it. [8D]

He thinks he's talking down to you Brian. Keep it up mandrin and fenring will show up. []

 

[mandrin]

MizunoJoe, I wish I could say something positive. I just can’t. You are not even good at mud slinging. However, keep trying to get better at it, one day you might get through it all, mature, and capable of discussing rationally golf related matters. [|)]

 

[birdie_man]

quote:"Excatly.

Mandrin showed that in a swing witha CONSTANT #4 accum.angle, and a SUPER SWEEP RELEASE, the center of the swing is the center of the shoulder turn.

But, of course, I don't teach anyone to do that.

Thanks, Mandrin"

Hold on hold on.

Did you realize that this (above)....

....wasn't really a compliment?