The Talent Code - meylin & golf

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i asked you a question since you read the books or other stuff. if you really studied what they found about einstein's brain, which happens to be beyond those 2 books, you will probably not be jumping up and down over just myelin.

i know what the book said about the myelin and i told you my opinion about it already. but i asked you to clarify your opinion of what you thought, not what the book said. do you agree with the statement that if you swing correctly, more myelin in made?

i can read the book and i did. to have you to tell me what the book said is not as interesting as knowing your own critical thinking.
 
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Back Off

Golfdad,
I have read both books and have gained a better insight to what produces a better environment to learn in and to achieve a higher standard. Your position needs to be a bit more relaxed. Just my honest opinion.
Best to you in golf,
MK
 
Golfdad,
I have read both books and have gained a better insight to what produces a better environment to learn in and to achieve a higher standard. Your position needs to be a bit more relaxed. Just my honest opinion.
Best to you in golf,
MK

good point, thanks!
 
... do you agree with the statement that if you swing correctly, more myelin in made?


I will have to go back and read all the posts in this thread, but I would like to comment on this question.

Tough to answer this question as it is stated. Myelin doesn't care about correct or incorrect. It is built up around axons that discharge an electrical impulse. The more impulses traveling along an axon, the more myelin is laid down around that axon. Myelin is laid down with any repeated movement pattern.

or is that the point you're trying to make?
 
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Myelin doesn't care about correct or incorrect.

that is precisely my point. myelin is being made on a cellular level reacting to a whole host of factors and the precise mechanism is not known, such as whether the guy is swinging a golf club or a baseball club or watching tv or typing on keyboard...

no distinction has been made about TGM myelin, Manzella myelin, method myelin, person myelin,,,

"more" myelin is being made means something and we just don't know what.

but it is better to jump on the bandwagon because the books are good in other areas but that myelin is mentioned???

perhaps mandrin indeed wants to discuss about myelin on a golf site. if that is the case, i think i have over-exerted my opinion on it, to the point that it has overshadowed other more interesting and important topics for discussion for which i apologize.

as i stated earlier on this thread, there are many other aspects of those books that are more pertinent to golf training.
 
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that is precisely my point. myelin is being made on a cellular level reacting to a whole host of factors, whether the guy is swinging a golf club or a baseball club or watching tv or typing on keyboard...

no distinction has been made about TGM myelin, Manzella myelin, method myelin, person myelin,,,

but it is better to jump on the bandwagon because the books are good and that myelin is mentioned???

perhaps mandrin indeed wants to discuss about myelin on a golf site. if that is the case, i think i have over-exerted my opinion on it, to the point that it has overshadowed other more interesting and important topics for discussion for which i apologize.

as i stated earlier on this thread, there are many other aspects of those books that are more pertinent to golf training.

Hmm. I'm not sure I fully understand your point about the myelin connection. I would have to read the book more in depth to comment further on what the author was saying about myelin.

But, my take on the myelin connection is that specific movement patterns, skills, or even thinking ability can be enhanced and made "automatic"-- or more efficient or faster-- which is many times the difference between being good and great at the given task. A good teacher/instructor who understands this, understands the "correct" movement patterns, and is able to effectively teach the "correct" movement patterns can therefore help in reducing the amount of myelin "wasted" on unwanted movement pathways for a desired skill and may actually be able to shape the myelin production to achieve an improved result in the "correct" pathway compared to no or poor instruction.(sorry for the run on.)
 
Hmm. I'm not sure I fully understand your point about the myelin connection. I would have to read the book more in depth to comment further on what the author was saying about myelin.

But, my take on the myelin connection is that specific movement patterns, skills, or even thinking ability can be enhanced and made "automatic"-- or more efficient or faster-- which is many times the difference between being good and great at the given task. A good teacher/instructor who understands this, understands the "correct" movement patterns, and is able to effectively teach the "correct" movement patterns can therefore help in reducing the amount of myelin "wasted" on unwanted movement pathways for a desired skill and may actually be able to shape the myelin production to achieve an improved result in the "correct" pathway compared to no or poor instruction.(sorry for the run on.)

shouldn't the good teacher teach the way you have described regardless?

i fail to see how the "myelin phenom" gets factored into the teaching equation.

in other words, how would a good teacher who previously know nothing about myelin (assuming there is something to know) teach differently now he reads about myelin? send him on a guilt trip if he fails to teach correctly because he has wasted someone's myelin?

you've got that line right: i totally and fully do not understand the myelin connection:) totally, fully! :)

ps, i am not sure if you really know what myelin is and does. read about it for your own info. consider an electric wire. the cooper inside is the nerve; the plastic cover outside, myelin. thus myelin is the white, fattish cover on the nerve. it is kinda audacious to say the least that we are sounding more sure what myelin does or does not on a golf site than neuroscientists who are studying it.:) it is not fair.:)
 
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Your right, good teachers/instructors teach well all the time without having a clue about the physiological changes they are creating. The myelin connection was just one of the physiological changes discovered.

Is completely a better term? :) I am from California, but not the Valley and I didn't use "like" in every sentence either. :)
 
golfdad,

To start I just want to make it clear that I am not jumping up and down with the myelin issue. Rather it is you who strangely seems to have some problem with it and focus on it. Also don't expect to have all explained and condensed in only a few lines typical of posts on forums. I am trying hard but that is a trick beyond me.

Medical education consists, by and large, of memorizing a very large amount of information. If critical thinking would be considered essential one could never finish any such type of education as it involves a huge amount of accumulated experimental facts of which only very few can possibly be verified by the student. Hence it is all primarily based on trust.

Similarly to a medical student when I read a book, with references made to serious scientific journals for every chapter, my normal reaction is to trust the references made to interviews with experts identified by name, title and university affiliation. If such a book contained nonsense it would rapidly by signaled by experts, especially when it is very popular, hence attracting attention.

So what do experts think ?

Firing of the neural path ways increases slowly over time the myelin wrapping of the fibers of these activated neural circuits. It does not matter what causes these electrical pulses to occur. A link has been found to exist between myelin wrapping and various skills.

Who are some of these experts?

Dr. Douglas Fields, Director of the Laboratory of Developmental Neurobiology at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland.

Dr. George Bartzokis, professor of neurology at UCLA.

Who is golfdad:

Most likely a descent golfer and a good daddy for his kids. :)

So what did research come up with?

Just to mention only some, not related to mice, but to humans.

In 2005 Frederik Ullen scanned the brains of concert pianists and found a directly proportional relationship between hours of practice and white matter.

In 2000 Torkel Klingberg linked reading skill to white matter increases, and in 2006 Jesus Pujol did the same for vocabulary development.

In 2005 the Cincinnati Children's Hospital study of 47 normal children aged 5 to 18 correlated increased IQ with increased organization and density of white matter.

Note: myelin = white matter.

For those who are curious about deep practising. Briefly - 1) braking down the desired skill in very small chunks, 2) very attentive repetition and 3) learning to feel it.

Anyone serious about his golf game should read these two books about talents. They are a fascinating read and notwithstanding the hesitations by some who are are programmed by their education to only believe in terms of double blinded studies in humans. It opens new interesting perspectives for those who want to be part of the future right now. :)
 

ej20

New
Practice almost always will improve our performance.There is nothing new here.The more I play Mario Karts,the better and sharper I get at it.

But there is a limit to how much we improve and there lies how much talent we have.Most of us here will never play on the pga tour or even win our club championship no matter how much we practice,know about the golf swing or who the instructor is.Just gotta wake up and face the brutal reality.

The Talent Code may help to get the most out of your ability but don't expect miracles.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Mandrin.....

I am really enjoying your posts on this thread.

"Golfdad"....is it possible to blow too much smoke up the arse of a man who has been kicked in that same arse his whole career?
 
Great Reply

Mandrin,

You expose yourself as a very understanding individual with a great deal of patience.:) Your insight is truly contributory to the benefit of the forum and I appreciate your insight. You must be a teacher yourself because you never remand your students, only encourage the use of there ability.

Keep posting and I am the beneficiary of your knowledge.

Thank you,
MK
 
Another book

There will be another book out shortly that will enable the student to enjoy practice. "Stealth Practice: Games for Golf":cool:
MK
 
Practice almost always will improve our performance.There is nothing new here.The more I play Mario Karts,the better and sharper I get at it.

But there is a limit to how much we improve and there lies how much talent we have.Most of us here will never play on the pga tour or even win our club championship no matter how much we practice,know about the golf swing or who the instructor is.Just gotta wake up and face the brutal reality.

The Talent Code may help to get the most out of your ability but don't expect miracles.

Sorry ej20, but I have to disagree to a certain degree. Of course there are some who are incapable, regardless of environment, of attaining an elite performance level. Agreed.

However, taking mandrin's interpretation of those books on "performance development" one could deduce that the point the author is making is that ALL of those who are capable of elite level performance do NOT attain it. Only some. The reason lies in how much their environment, including the structure and nature of their practice, actually led to 1. improved performance AND (according to this hypothesis) 2. the production of myelin. Those two variables appear to be interlinked but possibly seperate factors: ie improved perfomance is in some way linked to to the production of myelin but myelin can be produced WITHOUT improved performance. Right mandrin??
 

ej20

New
Sorry ej20, but I have to disagree to a certain degree. Of course there are some who are incapable, regardless of environment, of attaining an elite performance level. Agreed.

However, taking mandrin's interpretation of those books on "performance development" one could deduce that the point the author is making is that ALL of those who are capable of elite level performance do NOT attain it. Only some. The reason lies in how much their environment, including the structure and nature of their practice, actually led to 1. improved performance AND (according to this hypothesis) 2. the production of myelin. Those two variables appear to be interlinked but possibly seperate factors: ie improved perfomance is in some way linked to to the production of myelin but myelin can be produced WITHOUT improved performance. Right mandrin??

Sure,there are probably hundreds or thousands of people perhaps in China or India that have more potential than Tiger Woods but it will never be realised because none of them have the means to even play the game.That goes without saying but the author of the book is saying that greatness is not born but grown leads the reader to assume that any individual can achieve greatness,not just the ones that are blessed with the potential.
 
ej, that's not what I mean.

I'm talking about guys like you and me and some of our buddies who could have been better than we became IF we had sussed out earlier in our lives how to maximise our potential. This would have been achieved by practicing better coupled with better coaching. In this enviromnent it MAY have been possible to discover skills that we didn't know we had in us.
 
brian, i have no idea what you are asking.

matt, i agree with you that mandrin should continue posting. in fact, i have read some of his postings of late and i consider him to be a thoughtful person capable of synthesizing different ideas and presenting a thread worthy of interesting discussion. of late, i remember reading his take on david leadbetter's ground reaction article, if i remember correctly. i find it refreshing that he did not just take leadbetter's word for it. he questioned some aspects of leadbetter's article. i applaud that approach. mandrin there has demonstrated he was able to question things objectively, based on his own understanding. he did not get blinded by leadbetter's statue and fame.

perhaps a man of ideas like mandrin can make up his own mind whether he wants to continue to post and i certainly do not see why that is a concern just because he raised some points for discussion and i countered them. essentially he claims that there is "evidence" but i claim that the "evidence" as it relates to golf instruction has not been substantiated. there is a huge leap from basic science to clinical golf teaching. if we regard on some level this is actually an academic discussion, then let it be. to disagree and learn to see each other's point is what makes progress possible. from reading this site, i take that brian and his team has undergone such changes over the years. it takes courage to change and takes a lot more to change for the better. if you think my posting here is personal, you may be mistaken. if my posting is not to your liking, well, stop reading them. this is an online discussion in which there will be opinions from all angles. if you do not want to read my postings since they are currently the polar opposite of mandrin's, i am perfectly fine with it. there is a chance in fact that through the exchanges, you will see your mandrin in a better form. i take you teach students some of whom may even question your believes once in a while. they are not trouble makers; instead you may want to embrace dissenting views. if those books help you to help them more, fantastic because teaching and learning golf takes a broad perspective and a lot of give and take. if mandrin's use of myelin fits your teaching model, all the better. if you can convince your students and have them really play better with the myelin lingo, i will be the last one to second guess your effort and achievement. but, i think it is important to establish at some level the difference between figures of speech and facts.

mandrin, you are only partially correct when you speculated that i am a decent golfer and a good dad. the former is very far from the truth, farther than you can imagine :) even being a good dad is a hit and miss effort.

i do not intend to make this personal and escalate our disagreement to another level where matt may plead again that i should back off and i certainly do not take offense of your use of those scientists' names and then turn around and ask, but who are you. since i have decided to use golfdad here, let's just keep it that way. currently i am not functioning as a scientist because my work is in venture capital but because of my background and training, my work involves evaluating new tech and developments in the medical science. having a medical degree does not prove at all that my opinion is to be taken more seriously than yours on the discussion or emphasis of myelin in golf instruction. perhaps my background has conditioned me to questions things. in a post replying to sph. i have raised my questions on whether this new finding has any relevance to golf teaching. by no means am i suggesting that people cannot benefit from reading those books. i apologize again if my disagreement with you, over this issue on myelin, may have sidetracked other more meaningful aspects of your thread.
 
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GolfDad, I have a comment.

I don't believe that you went through college, medical school, and now venture capitalism writing in the manner that you do on this forum. I understand what you are communicating, but all the grammatical mistakes, lack of capitalization, mis-spelled words, lack of paragraphs , frankly, make reading your posts a real struggle. It is really ironic given your educational level.
 
GolfDad, I have a comment.

I don't believe that you went through college, medical school, and now venture capitalism writing in the manner that you do on this forum. I understand what you are communicating, but all the grammatical mistakes, lack of capitalization, mis-spelled words, lack of paragraphs , frankly, make reading your posts a real struggle. It is really ironic given your educational level.


good point:) believe whatever one fancies:)

you really should have seen the first draft! :)
 
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It is golfdad, not GolfDad! Softconsult IS the Underground Grammarian! Richard Mitchell would be proud. Yes, I am aware that people that make liberal use of quotation marks tend to laugh at their own jokes!!! I have no difficulty following golfdad's offerings, neither should you if your comprehension is on par with your writing ability.:D


As for medical training and neuroscience, the information is so new that if the ink is dry on your medical degree you may well be behind!

No doubt this thread will be censored in short order.
 
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