The XYZ axes, and what contributes the most to clubhead speed (now w/p5 VIDEO)

[blehnhard]

"Low Hands" vs "Downarching (Twistaway) -

I am confused on one point regarding keeping the "hands under the table". If I downarch / supinate / twistaway during the downswing, it seems to "raise the handle". Combined with the effect of "toe drop" putting pressure on the hands to raise, I then come in with hands higher than at address.

So if "raising the handle" is a speed killer, and the "downarch / supinate / twistaway" is a speed enhancer, how does one do it with our raising the handle? Also, does not a full uncocking of the left wrist (past initial address position) raise the handle?

Also, it looks like the early torque on the "y axis" would be an uncocking of the left wrist combined with some straighening of the right elbow and that the later torque about the "y axis" would be the release of the bend of the right wrist combined with more straightening of the right elbow (moving the lower part of the handle past the butt end). Is this correct? Where / When does one apply the later torque?

At what point in the downswing should you only be trying to "go normal"?

Just trying to wrap my "senior" brain around all of this.

Thanks - Bruce

 

[Brian Manzella]

"Low Hands" vs "Downarching (Twistaway) -

Low hands aren't for everyone.

I never really TRY to get folks to have their hands lower in almost all cases.

I guess the low hands comment came with the z helping the y, but that happens with ANY height of hands, including very high hands.

I am confused on one point regarding keeping the "hands under the table". [/quote}

In low back model swings, the hands are ON the table until the end, then they go under the table.

If I downarch / supinate / twistaway during the downswing, it seems to "raise the handle". Combined with the effect of "toe drop" putting pressure on the hands to raise, I then come in with hands higher than at address.

That's correct!

That's one the reasons that z rotation adds speed to y axis rotation.

High Hands at impact are caused from UN-COCKED wrists. Un cocking wrists add speed to the clubhead on the y axis mid-downswing.

But, of course, trying to get your hands high is something you should't try to do necessarily.


So if "raising the handle" is a speed killer, and the "downarch / supinate / twistaway" is a speed enhancer, how does one do it with our raising the handle? Also, does not a full uncocking of the left wrist (past initial address position) raise the handle?

Also, it looks like the early torque on the "y axis" would be an uncocking of the left wrist combined with some straighening of the right elbow and that the later torque about the "y axis" would be the release of the bend of the right wrist combined with more straightening of the right elbow (moving the lower part of the handle past the butt end). Is this correct? Where / When does one apply the later torque?

At what point in the downswing should you only be trying to "go normal"?

The big ramp up of z axis rotation starts between left arm level and shaft level on the downswing.

The y and x going negative torque ("normal") happens just after shaft level.

 

[blehnhard]

Thanks - Brian - it is becoming clearer now. So in the pre impact area (last 2 or 3 feet of clubhead travel), there is no effort to straighten the right wrist - this effort should be applied much sooner - is that right? Just trying to counteract the aging effect with a more "efficient" swing.

Bruce

 

[gmbtempe]

Thanks BM.....starting to clear up a bit.

 

[spktho]

So, is it safe to say if the club head's center of gravity (basically a tiny spot somewhere around or in the club head corresponding the the "sweet spot") is in line with the shaft down near impact, then the movement of the center of gravity (sweet spot) is completely on the y-axis or alpha. Therefore, there is little to no influence on the sweet spot from gamma torque about the shaft near impact due to the center shafted putter analogy. That makes "rate of club face closure" a null argument near impact because it becomes the sweet spot closing on the y- axis only.

 

[gmbtempe]

So, is it safe to say if the club head's center of gravity (basically a tiny spot somewhere around or in the club head corresponding the the "sweet spot") is in line with the shaft down near impact, then the movement of the center of gravity (sweet spot) is completely on the y-axis or alpha. Therefore, there is little to no influence on the sweet spot from gamma torque about the shaft near impact due to the center shafted putter analogy. That makes "rate of club face closure" a null argument near impact because it becomes the sweet spot closing on the y- axis only.

Maybe, but your talking about near impact, my thinking about how the club face is working is taking place long before that.

 

[spktho]

Maybe, but your talking about near impact, my thinking about how the club face is working is taking place long before that.

Yep. So, near impact the face angle is more important than "rate of closure". That definitely has to be set up prior to "near impact".

 

[Keefer]

Anyone want to take a stab at what this thread is all about (in English). This stuff is way beyond inside baseball. What would your average 10 capper take away from all this mumbo jumbo? In many of these scentific threads a translator is needed.

 

[Keefer]

Anyone want to take a stab at what this thread is all about (in English). This stuff is way beyond inside baseball. What would your average 10 capper take away from all this mumbo jumbo? In many of these scentific threads a translator is needed.

Here's my guess. Closing the face at impact by twisting the club adds no significant speed to your swing.

 

[dschultz6072]

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/42840983" width="500" height="375" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

Sounds like what a certain Hogan "disciple" on the internet would call "tripping the shaft."

 

[Dariusz J.]

I wonder why all those Hogan references here. Suddenly, Brian & co. started to think Hogan's the best model to explain important things ? Better late than never.

Cheers

 

[wulsy]

Baloney!

Beta alone has to be around 15%.

Ok, if Alpha is 80%, Beta 15% what does that make Gamma? Please don't ask a scientist, save yourself the money.

By the way, do you know where the Z axis is? Pray tell...

 

[dschultz6072]

I wonder why all those Hogan references here. Suddenly, Brian & co. started to think Hogan's the best model to explain important things ? Better late than never.

Cheers

It's easy to see if you know where to look, right? He said that I think. Oh that was VJ's butt.

 

[Michael Finney]

Had to get off the call after 3 minutes....i was working

 

[Brian Manzella]

Anyone want to take a stab at what this thread is all about (in English). This stuff is way beyond inside baseball. What would your average 10 capper take away from all this mumbo jumbo? In many of these scentific threads a translator is needed.

This site has the following groups of people (no particular order):

1. Regular Golfers looking for Solid Information on the Golf Swing.

2. Avid golfers looking for Solid Information on the Golf Swing, and detail on the intricacies of methods, techniques, and science.

I wonder why all those Hogan references here. Suddenly, Brian & co. started to think Hogan's the best model to explain important things ? Better late than never.

Well, because I just did a video on him and anyone can watch the video.

Ok, if Alpha is 80%, Beta 15% what does that make Gamma? Please don't ask a scientist, save yourself the money.

By the way, do you know where the Z axis is? Pray tell...

No idea what your post is really about.

Had to get off the call after 3 minutes....i was working

For the record, Mike is a Head Pro and was running a tournament. We had already spoken earlier in the morning on this topic, and he thought I should do a video answer. I put him on to chime in at the end, he would have, but had to attend to business.

Also, Mike has been the one that has communicated with Alex Dee the whole time and his work on this stuff was invaluable to everyone.

 

[wulsy]

Where is the axis of rotation which you refer to as the z-axis, the gamma torque and twisting around the longitudinal axis? It can't be the shaft.

 

[Billy McKinney]

Any ideas about how offset clubs would be affected by the Gamma...seems like there may be a difference.
And speaking of Ben Hogan, he customized his irons by bending the lie angle around 90* then bending the hosel back to his flat lie angle, basically making them closer to center-shafted...the CoG got much closer to the shaft. Funny how no clubs have ever been made like his...maybe Jim Flood's Power Pod driver.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Where is the axis of rotation which you refer to as the z-axis, the gamma torque and twisting around the longitudinal axis? It can't be the shaft.

THE LONG AXIS OF THE SHAFT (as it comes out of the grip)....

 

[cwdlaw223]

Brian -

That video helped me understand the original statement immensely. Now I get how the gamma torque can help assist in unleasing the wrist cock and the wrist cock increases the Alpha torque. I was missing the "bridge" between the two concepts and I couldn't figure it out in the original thread post.

The comment about pistol shooting was also very helpful. Funny how logic/common sense says that the less movement the better (because that often works in other areas of out life), but when it comes to kinestic movement/ability that might not be a truism.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Just for the folks who can't see the obvious:

Orange by-itself — Near the top of the swing slight cup in the left wrist

Yellow with Orange — Yellow shows addition cup as Hogan reverse-twisted (negative gamma) 1/3rd of the way down.

Red with Yellow & Orange — Red shows flattened left wrist from positive-twistaway (positive gamma) 2/3rd of the way down.