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Think about THIS! ....
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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David Alford
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<Ringer, are you talking about the downswing? Both arms cannot be active as in a push/pull sense.. You cant push the right arm against a pulling left arm, it would be kind of pointless if you could.>
Imagine pulling a rope attached to the Liberty Bell. The right arm ends up pushing as the left pulls. Let Freedom Ring throughout this Great Land! Clang!
Imagine pulling a rope attached to the Liberty Bell. The right arm ends up pushing as the left pulls. Let Freedom Ring throughout this Great Land! Clang!
Both arms are pulling. You cannot push against a rope or against something that is pulling away. You can push against the left hand only when it is resisting and that's not pulling.
Put an elastic band on a door knob attach the right hand. You can't push it away from the door, only pull it away.
In Hitting, you PUSH the right arm but your Machine is set up differently. There is no pull with the left arm. It is a lot like shot putting. As Holenone says the left arm is a noodle.
Also, the Liberty Bell has no cord, it is struck from the outside to produce a ring.[:0]
Put an elastic band on a door knob attach the right hand. You can't push it away from the door, only pull it away.
In Hitting, you PUSH the right arm but your Machine is set up differently. There is no pull with the left arm. It is a lot like shot putting. As Holenone says the left arm is a noodle.
Also, the Liberty Bell has no cord, it is struck from the outside to produce a ring.[:0]
quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee
Both arms are pulling. You cannot push against a rope or against something that is pulling away. You can push against the left hand only when it is resisting and that's not pulling.
Put an elastic band on a door knob attach the right hand. You can't push it away from the door, only pull it away.
In Hitting, you PUSH the right arm but your Machine is set up differently. There is no pull with the left arm. It is a lot like shot putting. As Holenone says the left arm is a noodle.
Also, the Liberty Bell has no cord, it is struck from the outside to produce a ring.[:0]
Hey 6!
Just for clarification . . .
The left arm is active in pulling in "swinging," but in hitting it's a noodle? So it's only active in swinging and not hitting?
Thanks man!
R
E,quote:Originally posted by ecox3
Run,
Reread holeinone's (Yoda's) post!
EC
Wow! I'm gonna have to learn to read or have somebody start reading to me! The first sentence nailed it.
Hey no lefties on Friday! The grip change worked!
Muchas!
R
David Alford
New
6Bee wrote:
>Both arms are pulling.
You cannot push against a rope or against something that is pulling away. You can push against the left hand only when it is resisting and that's not pulling.
Put an elastic band on a door knob attach the right hand. You can't push it away from the door, only pull it away.
In Hitting, you PUSH the right arm but your Machine is set up differently. There is no pull with the left arm. It is a lot like shot putting. As Holenone says the left arm is a noodle.
Also, the Liberty Bell has no cord, it is struck from the outside to produce a ring.>
When you are pulling on a rope attached to a heavy object like a church bell or some other weight, the right hand indedd is initially pulling. As the hands come forward to the midline of the body the right hand begins to push as the biceps are used less and the triceps are used more. Same thing for the elastic band. If the triceps are used, that's pushing.
Regarding the Liberty Bell, I did a google search and found your statement to be incorrect. The clanger cracked the bell from the inside, not to mention the bell was meant to be in a belfry where it would be rung by a rope. In fact, it did occupy that position for a period of time.
clunk!
[8D]
>Both arms are pulling.
You cannot push against a rope or against something that is pulling away. You can push against the left hand only when it is resisting and that's not pulling.
Put an elastic band on a door knob attach the right hand. You can't push it away from the door, only pull it away.
In Hitting, you PUSH the right arm but your Machine is set up differently. There is no pull with the left arm. It is a lot like shot putting. As Holenone says the left arm is a noodle.
Also, the Liberty Bell has no cord, it is struck from the outside to produce a ring.>
When you are pulling on a rope attached to a heavy object like a church bell or some other weight, the right hand indedd is initially pulling. As the hands come forward to the midline of the body the right hand begins to push as the biceps are used less and the triceps are used more. Same thing for the elastic band. If the triceps are used, that's pushing.
Regarding the Liberty Bell, I did a google search and found your statement to be incorrect. The clanger cracked the bell from the inside, not to mention the bell was meant to be in a belfry where it would be rung by a rope. In fact, it did occupy that position for a period of time.
clunk!
[8D]
David Alford
New
I wrote:
>If the triceps are used, that's pushing>
(referring to the right arm).
>If the triceps are used, that's pushing>
(referring to the right arm).
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Am I right, David?
David, Pulling against something immovable like the bell and pulling a free moving golf club are different. Both left and right can pull till the cows come home, but you'll never pull the bell out of the belfry. A golf club on the other hand is light and can freely move across your body.
As far as the use of extensor action, If the left hand is pulling the grip, it is also pulling the right hand, because the right hand is gripped on the club. That wouldn't qualify as pushing, just because its on the club when the left is pulling.
As far as the use of extensor action, If the left hand is pulling the grip, it is also pulling the right hand, because the right hand is gripped on the club. That wouldn't qualify as pushing, just because its on the club when the left is pulling.
David Alford
New
I've seen Monks pulling on those bells and they (the bell/s) move!
Most gyms have exercise machines where you pull on a grip which is attached to weights. As you pull with both hands (assuming a golf stance and pulling in the direction you would pull a club), both hands/arms are pulling initially.
As the hands/arms get down in "the slot", the right arm converts from pulling to pushing and you'll notice the triceps is used not the biceps. The left can desist from pulling or it can continue.
This is one type of power source. It can also be done more sequentially from the beginning of the downswing (left first then right or even vice versa). Other power sources are there, if you want to use them. Right elbow drive, left elbow, both elbows, left latisimus dorsi, deltoid, pectoralis (uncommon) right hand extension, left arm/wrist rotation, partial right wrist extenison/rotation w/right arm extension, and others. I'd have to think of all the variations. I didn't read TGM to learn this stuff, I worked it out on my OWN!
This isn't theoretical, if someone tells me I can't pull with the left and push with the right, stand back and watch the little white ball...
Brian, right about what? That the right arm can push while the left pulls and/or by itself? If you said that, yes, you would be correct. I don't know why this is controversial.
Most gyms have exercise machines where you pull on a grip which is attached to weights. As you pull with both hands (assuming a golf stance and pulling in the direction you would pull a club), both hands/arms are pulling initially.
As the hands/arms get down in "the slot", the right arm converts from pulling to pushing and you'll notice the triceps is used not the biceps. The left can desist from pulling or it can continue.
This is one type of power source. It can also be done more sequentially from the beginning of the downswing (left first then right or even vice versa). Other power sources are there, if you want to use them. Right elbow drive, left elbow, both elbows, left latisimus dorsi, deltoid, pectoralis (uncommon) right hand extension, left arm/wrist rotation, partial right wrist extenison/rotation w/right arm extension, and others. I'd have to think of all the variations. I didn't read TGM to learn this stuff, I worked it out on my OWN!
This isn't theoretical, if someone tells me I can't pull with the left and push with the right, stand back and watch the little white ball...
Brian, right about what? That the right arm can push while the left pulls and/or by itself? If you said that, yes, you would be correct. I don't know why this is controversial.
quote:Originally posted by David Alford
I don't know why this is controversial.
Because of 2K being incomplete.
David,
You CAN pull and then push, but the push preempts the CF from the pull. The push through impact is then a PURE push which totally overrides the pull. It's not additive.
If you want to use the right hand in a Swing, you can use it to help out with the full left arm roll.
Harvey Penick refered it as "The crossover for snap".
You CAN pull and then push, but the push preempts the CF from the pull. The push through impact is then a PURE push which totally overrides the pull. It's not additive.
If you want to use the right hand in a Swing, you can use it to help out with the full left arm roll.
Harvey Penick refered it as "The crossover for snap".
Ringer,
I'm not sure what you mean by the "muscular effort of either forearm" in pushing or pulling. The push would be with the right tricep and the pull from the inert left arm cranked by the right shoulder.
Also, could you elaborate on "Just the sustaining of the upper arms in their position while the joints flail around somewhat haphazardly."?
I'm not sure what you mean by the "muscular effort of either forearm" in pushing or pulling. The push would be with the right tricep and the pull from the inert left arm cranked by the right shoulder.
Also, could you elaborate on "Just the sustaining of the upper arms in their position while the joints flail around somewhat haphazardly."?
I would simply refer you to the teaching of Mr. Torre as he explains it quite eliquently. But to say the least about it, why must your tricep be active instead of passive? Why must your left arm pull or your right arm push. Why can they not also be acting on centrifugal force of the upper arms rotating around the spine? You can still add muscular effort to the upper arms as well, but again the only thing changing the alignment would be either a movement of your swing center (sorry, movement of the shoulder axis) or centrifulgal force. Forearm and hand action would be removed from the equation and in it's place is an automatic release.
Elbows relaxed, stay in balance. I've struck some of my longest drives doing that. The left arm is straight because it swings back. Right elbow automatically bends the way it's supposed to because the momentum of the club is rising to over the right shoulder. The hands work properly because of the momentum of the club and their natural tendency to stay in line with the rest of the arm.
But again, if you really want to know about it, MDLT is the source.
Elbows relaxed, stay in balance. I've struck some of my longest drives doing that. The left arm is straight because it swings back. Right elbow automatically bends the way it's supposed to because the momentum of the club is rising to over the right shoulder. The hands work properly because of the momentum of the club and their natural tendency to stay in line with the rest of the arm.
But again, if you really want to know about it, MDLT is the source.
(Ringer Quote)Why can they not also be acting on centrifugal force of the upper arms rotating around the spine? (End Quote)
Because its highly inefficient! Weak!
MDLT states , " The only way to hit it farther is to speed up the arms, and the shoulders don't hit the ball." So, there is no way to generate speed with this flat planed, spine centered swing.
Because its highly inefficient! Weak!
MDLT states , " The only way to hit it farther is to speed up the arms, and the shoulders don't hit the ball." So, there is no way to generate speed with this flat planed, spine centered swing.
David Alford
New
M.Joe,
Anyone can test which muscles are being used and whether pulling or pushing are occuring -or both- by pulling on a rope someone holds, an elastic band attached to a door, etc. These don't exactly mimic a downswing, but the action is very similar to the swing activations being discussed. There are of course many downswing possibilities. I do not favor a combined pull & push, although I can demonstrate it, so I know it works.
Re: left rollover, active use of the right is not advised.
Anyone can test which muscles are being used and whether pulling or pushing are occuring -or both- by pulling on a rope someone holds, an elastic band attached to a door, etc. These don't exactly mimic a downswing, but the action is very similar to the swing activations being discussed. There are of course many downswing possibilities. I do not favor a combined pull & push, although I can demonstrate it, so I know it works.
Re: left rollover, active use of the right is not advised.
1) The "Spinning Top" has an external source of power. The string
2) The Top is built efficiently. Tightly compressed sphere narrowing to a hard pointed tip of steel.
3) Spinning efficiency in ballet occurs on one pointed foot, arms tightly against your body. Golfers are horribly efficient spinners; two legs spread shoulder width and our arms extended. Golfers do everything to impede efficient rotational force.
4) That's why we work better using the left arm and golf club as a lever, the left shoulder being the origin (center of that lever)
I think that clarifies and substantiates the inefficiency.
2) The Top is built efficiently. Tightly compressed sphere narrowing to a hard pointed tip of steel.
3) Spinning efficiency in ballet occurs on one pointed foot, arms tightly against your body. Golfers are horribly efficient spinners; two legs spread shoulder width and our arms extended. Golfers do everything to impede efficient rotational force.
4) That's why we work better using the left arm and golf club as a lever, the left shoulder being the origin (center of that lever)
I think that clarifies and substantiates the inefficiency.
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