This doesn't look right

[Ringer]

Did another video yesterday of my swing and there's always been something about my halfway to the ball position that's bothered me.

I used to focus on it being my hands always much further from my body as you can see in this side by side comparison. Tiger's hands are in front of his right shoulder, mine are almost under my neck.

But recently I realized my shoulders are turned much further at this point.

I've been really trying to do more about getting my right shoulder "down plane". From this position, you can see the big difference between my right shoulder and Tigers. I believe this is the source of the inconsistency that I run into from time to time.

So.. WHERE is DOWNPLANE????

How do you practice this? Looking for visual equivilance here.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Down the yellow line:

However the way the club looks in the downswing for Snead and Tiger is going to look different from yours because they use the Elbow Plane on the downswing and you use the Turned Shoulder Plane.

 

[Mr Inconsistent]

You should work on flexibility to allow you to separate your upper body from your lower body.

 

[puttmad]

Ringer,

The two photos are not quite synchronised. You are a bit further along the downswing than Tiger.

I would note a couple of things though.
Note the steepness of Tiger's shoulder line. This is an adjustment he makes during his "squat" move. Yours is much flatter. Yoyr left shoulder is already up by your left ear.

Also note, that although Tiger is at an earlier stage of the downswing than you, his hips are already further open than yours...he is already driving his right side around..

Try compressing your right side (from shoulder to hip) more on the downswing, right from the off. That will steepen your shoulder line...

 

[StewartBannatyne]

Whether it is important or not, also, Tiger has stated in the past that his goal is to get his shoulders square at impact, not open, as I believe you are trying to get them, Ringer.

Stew

 

[Ringer]

Ringer,

The two photos are not quite synchronised. You are a bit further along the downswing than Tiger.

I would note a couple of things though.
Note the steepness of Tiger's shoulder line. This is an adjustment he makes during his "squat" move. Yours is much flatter. Yoyr left shoulder is already up by your left ear.

Also note, that although Tiger is at an earlier stage of the downswing than you, his hips are already further open than yours...he is already driving his right side around..

Try compressing your right side (from shoulder to hip) more on the downswing, right from the off. That will steepen your shoulder line...

I honestly appreciate your input puttmad but the part about his hips further open I think is inaccurate. Just look at my right foot compared to his. He's still on the ground and mine is comming up. I see just as much of my behind as him..

I honestly cannot "compress" my right side any more either. Look at where my right elbow is. I cannot dig it into my side any more than it is. Right elbow position is nearly the same.

Your initial comment is right though. I do have a flatter shoulder turn. Not sure if I need a steeper shoulder turn or not. That's really what's at question.

I'm searching for that something that is producing my misses. They tend to go right as a push fade.

 

[Ringer]

You should work on flexibility to allow you to separate your upper body from your lower body.

Flexibility is NOT my problem. I'm just as flexible as Tiger is. I am just turning my shoulders in a different way than he is.

 

[Ringer]

Down the yellow line:

However the way the club looks in the downswing for Snead and Tiger is going to look different from yours because they use the Elbow Plane on the downswing and you use the Turned Shoulder Plane.

Jim... I know what the turned shoulder plane is.. but that still doesn't give me the visual equivilant. It seems to me I'm getting slightly above plane to start my forward swing.

What's even more peculiar is that it seems it starts with my hip motion. I'm not twisting my hips as I see most people do wrong to get over plane. I have greatly improved my axis tilt as well. So I think something specificly with the direction of my shoulders is what's causing the issue.

I'm about 85% sure that this is the source of my push rights.

Almost everything about my swing screams pull.. yet consistently my miss is a push. I believe it's because of the release I have... but it all starts with a poor position to begin with and a compensation with my release.

 

[puttmad]

I honestly appreciate your input puttmad but the part about his hips further open I think is inaccurate. Just look at my right foot compared to his. He's still on the ground and mine is comming up. I see just as much of my behind as him..

I honestly cannot "compress" my right side any more either. Look at where my right elbow is. I cannot dig it into my side any more than it is. Right elbow position is nearly the same.

Your initial comment is right though. I do have a flatter shoulder turn. Not sure if I need a steeper shoulder turn or not. That's really what's at question.

I'm searching for that something that is producing my misses. They tend to go right as a push fade.

I was judging the hip turn accounting for the fact that your camera is right behind the shot and Tigers camera is not. If you put Tiger's camera where your's is, I think you'll see a bit more hip turn and don't forget he is slightly earlier in the downswing.

Re the compressing your right side you do it right from the top before your body has chance to turn too much. That brings your right shoulder down faster and more inside. Try it and see how you "look" half way down from the rear view.

BTW A push fade can sometimes be as simple as the ball being slightly too far back in your stance, i.e. inside path=push, open clubface (not enough time to square up)=fade

 

[bbftx]

Why not post video of the whole swing?

Ringer,
Why don't you post a clip of the entire swing? Perhaps your pushes are caused by something other than this particular position. It might be beneficial for you to get input on the whole move.

Also, what's Tiger swinging -- wedge? You've got a much longer club in your hands, right?

 

[JeffM]

Ringer- Could it be that when you start the downswing, you allow your right shoulder to move too soon, and that slight OTT movement takes your hands towards the toe line too soon, and causes your clubshaft to be slightly above (slightly steeper) than the optimum clubshaft path? I note that your hands are above your toe line and the clubshaft is cutting across the upper half of your upper arm. I think that when Tiger's hands eventually get to a position above his toes, his clubshaft will be lower (shallower) and cut across the lower half of his upper arm. That means that you have a clubshaft plane that is slightly too steep (slightly above the optimum clubshaft plane) - compared to Tiger Woods - which may predispose to a slight fade.

I agree with bbftx. An ability to see your enture swing video would be very useful from a diagnostic perspective.

Jeff.

 

[Ringer]

bbftx... I have not uploaded the video to youtube yet and Brian doesn't want any videos from any other websites than Youtube.

 

[shortgamer]

If your miss is a push fade the face is open at seperation. In your old swing videos you had a nice flat left wrist at the top but from the front you looked to have a little leakage. Is it possible you're losing your flat left wrist on the downswing thus the open face? It's hard to see the wrist on the downswing from the video quality. If there's one thing I've learned on this site it's to fix the face first.

 

[Ringer]

Here is my swing on 1/20

 

[Ringer]

Ringer- Could it be that when you start the downswing, you allow your right shoulder to move too soon, and that slight OTT movement takes your hands towards the toe line too soon, and causes your clubshaft to be slightly above (slightly steeper) than the optimum clubshaft path? I note that your hands are above your toe line and the clubshaft is cutting across the upper half of your upper arm. I think that when Tiger's hands eventually get to a position above his toes, his clubshaft will be lower (shallower) and cut across the lower half of his upper arm. That means that you have a clubshaft plane that is slightly too steep (slightly above the optimum clubshaft plane) - compared to Tiger Woods - which may predispose to a slight fade.

I agree with bbftx. An ability to see your enture swing video would be very useful from a diagnostic perspective.

Jeff.

Jeff that is a very good description of the issue.

 

[Jared Willerson]

I like your swing and if you come "over it" at all I can barely tell, looks like your right shoulder is coming straight down the turned shoulder plane to me.

 

[bbftx]

The 1/20 swing video and the still frame from 2/3 look like very different swings to me.

To me, the 1/20 swing looks great.
The comparable still frame shows your right elbow slightly in front of you, rather than further back to the side and behind you as in the 2/3 photo. Also, your shoulder position looks better in 1/20. Your left shoulder is lower in the 1/20; while the 1/3 version has that shoulder almost in your left ear.

 

[Ringer]

Well I went to the range today. Unfortunately I forgot to bring my camera.

I was really thinking about this today and something really clicked for me.

I have to think about this for some time before I can put it in writing. But I will say it has given me tremendous insight about the right shoulder, release, and lag.

The other thing I will mention is that my "fast shoulders" assesment and that of Jeffmann was dead on.

 

[Ringer]

The 1/20 swing video and the still frame from 2/3 look like very different swings to me.

To me, the 1/20 swing looks great.
The comparable still frame shows your right elbow slightly in front of you, rather than further back to the side and behind you as in the 2/3 photo. Also, your shoulder position looks better in 1/20. Your left shoulder is lower in the 1/20; while the 1/3 version has that shoulder almost in your left ear.

Absolutely correct.

I open up my shoulders way too soon.

I worked on moving the club forward in a different way.

 

[Mr Inconsistent]

Flexibility is NOT my problem. I'm just as flexible as Tiger is. I am just turning my shoulders in a different way than he is.

If you are flexible then turn your hips without turning your shoulders with them as much during the downswing. Then you won't hit pulls and will get more distance.