This doesn't look right

[JeffM]

A suggestion.

Ringer - I am new to this forum, so take my criticism lightly.

First of all, you have an amazing swing. I presume that you are in the professional class - quality wise. You do so many things right. You seem to generate so much power, and you have amazing extension in your followthrough.

However, I am offering you some criticism with the hope that it may be accurate and useful.

I downloaded your swing video, and looked at using the V1 Home swing analyser

First of all, I plotted the clubhead swingpath.

See - http://jeffmann.net/RingerPath.jpg

I noted that you take your clubhead slightly outside the ball-target line during the initial 12" of the takeaway. Then, you have an amazing amount of extension of your arms that takes your arms away from your body, which causes the clubhead swingpath to be wide and slightly shallow. Then you overswing slightly and that takes your clubhead all the way over to the left of your head, nearly to the point of crossing the line at the top. You can also see that your downswing clubhead path is slightly steeper than the backswing clubhead swingpath, even though you have a superb hip transition move. I think that your downswing clubhead swingpath is slightly too steep because your hands are too high above your right shoulder at the end of the backswing - see next part of this discussion.

The part of your backswing that bothers me is what happens at the end of your backswing.

See - http://jeffmann.net/RingerComposite.jpg

That three-image composite image is from three sequential single frames at the very top of your backswing. Note that when you get to the top of your backswing, you dont stop at image 1. You keep on going, and your right elbow starts to lift and lift and lift. Note how much higher your right elbow gets. That lifting phenomenon also causes your left arm to become progressively steeper, so that in the last frame, your hands are high above the right shoulder. Surely, it is difficult to avoid a steep downswing path when your hands are that high above the right shoulder? Why don't you stop your backswing sooner - like image 1 when your left arm is covering the shoulder turn?

Consider this series of photos of Aaron Baddeley's swing.

See - http://jeffmann.net/AB-BackswingComparison.jpg

Aaron Baddeley has recently changed his swing, and you can see his new swing compared to his old swing. Note that he has shortened his backswing - he only takes his left arm back to 10:30 o'clock instead of 11 o'clock, and he now keeps his left arm below the shoulder turn. I think that it makes his swing compact and efficient. You take your left arm back to greater than 11 o'clock (? 11:30 o'clock). Why don't you mimic Aaron Baddeley's backswing and shorten your backswing a lot and make sure that your hands never get high above your right shoulder?

Jeff.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

You need to get your left shoulder to go more "up" rather than "back" so you can keep your right shoulder going downplane further without losing it.

 

[Ringer]

That's the full swing of 2/3/07.

I think I prefer my swing of 1/20 that has been posted here before.

Jim you're right.... but that's more of an effect than a cause.

The answers I found are in 2-N-1.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer - I am new to this forum, so take my criticism lightly.

First of all, you have an amazing swing. I presume that you are in the professional class - quality wise. You do so many things right. You seem to generate so much power, and you have amazing extension in your followthrough.

However, I am offering you some criticism with the hope that it may be accurate and useful.

I downloaded your swing video, and looked at using the V1 Home swing analyser

First of all, I plotted the clubhead swingpath.

See - http://jeffmann.net/RingerPath.jpg

I noted that you take your clubhead slightly outside the ball-target line during the initial 12" of the takeaway. Then, you have an amazing amount of extension of your arms that takes your arms away from your body, which causes the clubhead swingpath to be wide and slightly shallow. Then you overswing slightly and that takes your clubhead all the way over to the left of your head, nearly to the point of crossing the line at the top. You can also see that your downswing clubhead path is slightly steeper than the backswing clubhead swingpath, even though you have a superb hip transition move. I think that your downswing clubhead swingpath is slightly too steep because your hands are too high above your right shoulder at the end of the backswing - see next part of this discussion.

The part of your backswing that bothers me is what happens at the end of your backswing.

See - http://jeffmann.net/RingerComposite.jpg

That three-image composite image is from three sequential single frames at the very top of your backswing. Note that when you get to the top of your backswing, you dont stop at image 1. You keep on going, and your right elbow starts to lift and lift and lift. Note how much higher your right elbow gets. That lifting phenomenon also causes your left arm to become progressively steeper, so that in the last frame, your hands are high above the right shoulder. Surely, it is difficult to avoid a steep downswing path when your hands are that high above the right shoulder? Why don't you stop your backswing sooner - like image 1 when your left arm is covering the shoulder turn?

Consider this series of photos of Aaron Baddeley's swing.

See - http://jeffmann.net/AB-BackswingComparison.jpg

Aaron Baddeley has recently changed his swing, and you can see his new swing compared to his old swing. Note that he has shortened his backswing - he only takes his left arm back to 10:30 o'clock instead of 11 o'clock, and he now keeps his left arm below the shoulder turn. I think that it makes his swing compact and efficient. You take your left arm back to greater than 11 o'clock (? 11:30 o'clock). Why don't you mimic Aaron Baddeley's backswing and shorten your backswing a lot and make sure that your hands never get high above your right shoulder?

Jeff.

Thank you for your input Jeff. I have actually heard your line of thinking before as a fix. I can tell you that it doesn't resolve the actual problem... and here's why.

I FEEL powerful with a very tightly pinned left arm to my chest... and hard pivot. I can turn fast as anyone on tour.. sometimes faster.

What Aaron has really done is gone to the "1 plane" philosophy of Hardy. Steeper spine tilt, and flatter plane. The reason it looks shorter is because his arm simply cannot go accross his chest any more than it is. Notice that his left arm is parallel with his shoulders. But in the old swing his hands went ABOVE his shoulders. He didn't shorten his swing.. he changed swing path to flatter.

A steeper shoulder turn on the forward swing only helps a little. It still makes my arms swing out WIDE. I'm emphasizing a key words here. Read 2-N-1 if you have TGM and you'll see why a shorter backswing is not the solution I"m looking for. It can be done with what you're saying. But will take me longer to improve my ball striking.

 

[puttmad]

Ringer

Powerful looking swing matey..

Just an observation tho-

Your shoulder turn is too flat. This is forcing you to have to raise your right arm at the top to get some height. You are also trying to help this along by raising you left shoulder blade (which is why your face is stuck right into your shoulder at the top), which immediately takes you off plane.

Also it looks as if the top half of your spine is more vertical than the bottom, as if you are straightening up.
If you draw a line across the top of your shoulders and then extend it so it hits the ground to the right of the ball (as viewed in the photos) that line will hit the ground about 10 yards away from you.
I have GASP on my computer and it has all the top pros swings on it. There isn't one who has a shoulder turn as flat as yours.

I used to swing too flat.
I cured it by making the first move of my backswing a slight dropping of the left shoulder, rather than a turning motion. That turning motion you are doing is why the club is going outside the line at the start of the backswing.
Once you shoulder has dropped a little you can forget about it as the rest of the shoulder backswing should automatically follow a slightly steeper path.
Then just don't allow your left shoulder blade to raise at the top. It can extend left-to-right, but not raise.

Just a thought....

 

[JeffM]

Ringer

OK - Maybe Aaron Baddeley's swing style is not a good choice for you.

You state that you want to "feel powerful by having your left arm tightly pinned to your chest".

OK. Then why not mimic Tiger Woods' backswing?

See - http://jeffmann.net/TigerRinger.jpg

Note that Tiger keeps his left arm tightly opposed to his upper chest in the backswing, but his left arm is lower than yours and it cuts across his shoulder line. In particular, note how much lower his right elbow is than your right elbow in the end backswing position. That allows him to more easily get his right elbow tucked into his right hip during the early downswing, and the clubshaft crosses the lower half of his right arm. I think that you cannot easily mimic Tiger's shallow downswing action because your right elbow and hands are too high at the end of the backswing. Your right elbow has much further to travel.

I remember reading Ben Hogan's 'Five Lessons" book, and he warns golfers from breaking through the pane of glass during the backswing. Your hands obviously break through the pane of glass.

Your high flying right elbow reminds me of the upright swing of Jack Nicklaus. Obviously, one can play great golf with an upright swing, but one cannot easily also have a shallow downswing plane (like Tiger Woods) when starting off with high hands and a high elbow.

Jeff.

 

[JeffM]

Ringer

Here is another comparison

See - http://jeffmann.net/RingerTiger2.jpg

Notice that image 1 in your end-backswing sequence mimics Tiger's end-backswing position in terms of left arm angle across the shoulder line and right elbow position, while in image 3 of your end-backswing sequence, your hands get far above your head.

If you stopped your backswing when you get to the image 1 position, then you would look just like Tiger Woods (except that you would need to move your wrists slightly so that the clubshaft was parallel to the ball-target line).

Jeff.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yikes!

With all due respect Jeff....

Whoa Nellie!

I don't know you from Adam, and I don't know if you are best friends with Ringer or have never met, but, seriously, you analysis is contrary to everything this forum stand for.

"Ringer, Jack Nicklaus had a pair of two-tone shoes on, maybe you need some two-tone shoes....."

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ringer.

Let's start with a set-up that has you leaning LESS to the right.

 

[JeffM]

Brian - could you please be more explict? In what way does my personal analysis transgress this forum's principles? I need to know, so that I can avoid furture transgressions.

Jeff.

 

[Ringer]

Let's start with a set-up that has you leaning LESS to the right.

Ok.. That's easy.

Understand I'm an auditory/kinesthetic learner. You tell me to do something and it will be done in 2 swings or less.

So less lean to my back foot.

FWIW, my session last night involved moving my hips but not openning up my shoulders. As many times as I've been told about this move it didn't actually sink in until yesterday. The missing ingredient was my arms. I was relying on only the 4th accumulator almost the entire length of the swing. Walop with the pivot was it for me. I've basically exagerated the 1st Accumulator action and started it sooner with a hip bump instead of swivel to start.

 

[bcoak]

Ringer,
The BM Youtube lesson (#4 I think) where he talks about teaching a beginner may be helpful as well (I know you arent a beginner). In particular, he talks about dropping or pushing your arms down from the top of thre downswing and then picking them up with the pivot so they dont hit the ground. Brian actually lets the club hit the ground a few times then adds pivot to illustrate. This movement/drill may help you as you can't really turn your shoulders and it helps to get to the position Tiger is in that you showed.

 

[Ringer]

Brian - could you please be more explict? In what way does my personal analysis transgress this forum's principles? I need to know, so that I can avoid furture transgressions.

Jeff.

Jeff... what he means is just because one professional is doing it doesn't mean everyone else should do it. I shouldn't substitute my issues with Aaron or Tigers swing.

That's why he made the comment of "Jack Nicklaus wears two tone shoes...." (that must be the secret so now everyone else should do it)

Luckily I have a good filter and I KNOW my swing.

 

[JeffM]

Ringer - OK. That's fine. I won't introduce any comparison to any other golfer.

You don't seem to be bothered by your high hands at the end-backswing position, so let me ask you a single question.

See - http://jeffmann.net/RingerHands.jpg

I traced the movement of your hands in the backswing and downswing using the V1 Home Swing Analyser's spline tool.

I also placed a red angled line to show where your right elbow is at the end of your backswing (the lines are drawn along the back of your right upper arm and back of your right forearm).

As you start the downswing with a hip transition move, I note that your body moves in such a manner that your right elbow gets even higher and changes its angle (white angled line), so that your hands move further around to the left. Then, when you start the downswing your hand swingpath is steeper and crosses the area of the upper half of your right upper arm to come down closer to the ball-target line than your backswing hand swingpath.

Does that represent a problem?

Jeff.

 

[Ringer]

Eureka!!!

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Very nice...i was able to look at roughly your follow through position on the front view and it looks absolutely perfect.

Nice work.

 

[Ringer]

Down the line...

 

[Ringer]

Face on..

 

[Ringer]

The most exciting thing to me is frame 6 in the face on view. I have NEVER had that much lag that long into my forward swing. My hands are FINALLY ahead of the ball at impact.

Down the line in frame 5 might not look like much, but trust me.. there is a HUGE difference there from the old swing. The shaft is up my right arm instead of steeper and more up my shoulder. And you may not be able to tell.. by my right shoulder is not going OUT until impact.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Congrats, the main thing that you are doing in these swings that you weren't doing in the old swings is that you aren't losing your tilt THROUGH the ball. This allows you to keep the right shoulder going downplane and thus allows you to get more trigger delay.

what did you do to keep you from not losing that tilt?