This ENDS all the DRIVER hits up or down debate!

[TGManMachine]

Brian, re Magruder Jr.

If you assume the center of rotation is the left shoulder, then the attack angle is negative or descending.

If you assume the center or rotation is the back tilted spinal axis at the neck, then the attack angle is positive or ascending.

I say that the left shoulder cannot be the rotative axis of the swing at impact because the left upper arm is pinned or connected to the left pec. The left arm is in effect part of the torso which is rotating around the spinal axis.

If you closely examine the swing.gif of your own swing, you will see the left arm rotating in unison with your torso around the shoulder span. Therefore the rotative center of the driver swing must be around the spinal axis and not the left shoulder.

Please respond to this issue and tell me why you would disagree that the left shoulder is NOT the driver swing rotative axis going through impact.

 

[EdZ]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

quote:Originally posted by Vaako

And the reason David Mobley is the beating everybody is that he's willing to think out of the box; start using descending impact and pick the driver & ball to fit.*

[?]


Vaako

The reason is that he maintains his lag WAY longer than most - which gives him the leverage of his entire body, the 'mass' supporting impact.

That picture supports my view of the swings 'center' very well - notice the axis tilt and how well he has maintained lag relative to a line perpendicular to his shoulders. I'd love to see his both arms straight position, I'd bet it is very Trevino like - perfect angles at both arms straight would be my guess, with 'full radius'.

Got it?

Not really.

If this is after all camera angles, then he's playing the same game everybody else is playing - only better. And my question is sorta moot to begin with.

What was your view of swing center again - the EdZ/TGManMachine/Horton notion that low point is under the (shoulders') rotational center at the base of the neck? And is this view similar to a Pelz'ian finesse swing consepts?

I'm having hard time following what is everybodys exact position on this topic.


Vaako

My view isn't about up or down on the drive THAT is simply a matter of "how you position the circle" relative to the ground and impact.

My position is that the swings center is NOT the left shoulder, but is in fact the center between the shoulders - the point around which the FORCE of the swing travels. This is in alignment with what Homer teaches about the left shoulder center in that a good swing can be seen from either perspective - much like that classic illusion of two faces looking at each other, which can also be seen as a fountain. Different perspectives. However I think that the left shoulder center is an ILLUSION and complicates how simple the golf swing really is. Off topic from the up/down debate, which I have said before is simply a matter of ball spin, launch angle - the ideals can be met from either an up OR down impact. I happen to think that down is the better choice however.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Geometrically impossible to be hitting up or level in this instance.

i m p o s s i b l e.............!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Brian Manzella]

edz...in this instance...down or up????

 

[EdZ]

clearly down from what I see, although the second pics look quite near 'level' - but not up at all.

 

[oztrainee]

quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

Good questions oztrainee.

For proper geometric analysis, I would think that you would have to view the golf swing from an elevated angle so that you have a perpendicular view as you are observing the true inclined plane of the swing. It seems that we are being presented with vertical face-on views as well as skewed viewing angles.

I believe that ball initial launch angles are governed by driver loft and line of compression to a greater extent than initial ball spin rate, which takes effect later in the ball's trajectory. Launch monitor results has clearly demonstrated that an ascending attack angle will produce optimal distance.

Do you know your exact attack angle or are you assuming that you have a descending attack angle?

To be frank, I am just a good book reader and not exactly a good golfer...

 

[Brian Manzella]

Here is another pic to ponder....

THE EXACT SWEETSPOT LOCATION thoughtout this swing:

 

[Brian Manzella]

The point is the "on the box" pic is as LEVEL or LOW POINT-ish as humanly possible....


...but the ball has been hit already.

Manzella 100....peanut gallery 0

 

[TGManMachine]

Brianman

Please explain the meaning of Kelley's statement in 1-L (pg 11) that:

"1. The Stationary Post (player's head) accurately returns the Club-head through the ball (Centered Arc)."

This suggests that the head, (which is directly in line with the neck-shoulder axis), is the center of the swing arc through impact, and not the left shoulder joint.

Is Kelley saying that the head is the center of the arc through the ball at impact? If it is the head, then the swing radius for Magruder Jr would suggest even more that the driver head is ascending in your photo.

 

[bts]

Might the clubhead move down at impact and go up at separation?

Remember, the ball got carried for a period of time during impact, which is likely to be a lot longer in LD than in RegularD.

Higher loft + decending path = more "off-center (or below equator) compression" (or less "sustaining of the line of compression") and "leakage" and backspin and higher trajectory (because it curves up due to the amount of backspin), yet weaker bounce.

Lower loft + ascending path = less "off-center compression vertically" (or more "sustaining of the line of compression") and "leakage" and back spin and higher launching angle (because of the ascending path), yet stronger bounce.

Would like to see those guys tee it much lower and really hit it down and take a nice piece of divot after impact (like the iron does) and win the LD.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Homer just said that IF the head is staionary, the arc would be centered.

 

[Brian Manzella]

bts....

How about this....

I'll just keep doing what I am doing (teaching people to hit slightly down on the driver) and all the other teachers can teach hitting up.

That would be cool with me.

 

[bts]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

bts....

How about this....

I'll just keep doing what I am doing (teaching people to hit slightly down on the driver) and all the other teachers can teach hitting up.

That would be cool with me.

Cool with me, too.

 

[TGManMachine]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Homer just said that IF the head is staionary, the arc would be centered.

Where did Kelley say: "IF"?

Under what circumstances did Kelley say that the head is NOT the center of the swing arc?

Can you clarify your swing geometry in regard to my above post requesting whether you consider the center of rotation at impact to be centered in the left shoulder or the torso center, or possibly even farther back at the head as in Magruder Jr's pic?

I trust that you as a GSED will be able to satisfactorily resolve these issues. Thanks.

 

[Erik_K]

TG,

let me ask you a question.

Even IF Brian's pics are somewhat skewed (not his fault-he is only human and it's tough to set everything up exactly perfect) what difference does it make if someone is hitting slightly up or down with driver?

Honestly, even if Brian is wrong and those guys are hitting up-they would be doing so by such a miniscule amount that, I for one think, makes very little difference. In my opinion, with the driver, it looks like most of the guys are hitting very much near the bottom of the swing arc. It's only when you zoom in and really slow things down that you can debate that the club is moving VERY SLIGHTLY up or down.

I think those shotvision (the thing CBS uses) pictures are the all convincing one needs. How many times does Peter Kostis say that impact occurs HIGH ON THE CLUBFACE with the driver. How can you do that with an ASCENDING BLOW?

 

[Vaako]

quote:Originally posted by EdZ

My view isn't about up or down on the drive THAT is simply a matter of "how you position the circle" relative to the ground and impact.

My position is that the swings center is NOT the left shoulder, but is in fact the center between the shoulders - the point around which the FORCE of the swing travels. This is in alignment with what Homer teaches about the left shoulder center in that a good swing can be seen from either perspective - much like that classic illusion of two faces looking at each other, which can also be seen as a fountain. Different perspectives. However I think that the left shoulder center is an ILLUSION and complicates how simple the golf swing really is. Off topic from the up/down debate, which I have said before is simply a matter of ball spin, launch angle - the ideals can be met from either an up OR down impact. I happen to think that down is the better choice however.

Ok - I'm on the map again.

It doesn't work the way you paint it. The problem is shoulders - left arm - golf club isn't a stiff system. Even if you lock the shoulder joint (glue the upper arm to chest) there is movement in wrist joint. Uncocking and rolling from releasing accumulators 2 and 3.

Accumulator 3 roll alone - as in swinger's sequental release - is enough to produce descending angle of clubhead attack when the left arm is going down towards the low point (under the left shoulder). Here the rate of descent from accumulator 3 release is much greter then the rate of ascent from raising left shoulder. You seem to overlook the accumulator 3 release in your theory.

Only ways to get the clubhead to ascending mode before left shoulder - as your swingcenter in the base of the neck theory demands - are chicken winging, flipping and extreme standing up. These are all by definition swing faults.

How does this natural/single axis swing world view work for you in practice - assuming you're an active player?


Vaako

 

[TGManMachine]

Erik K

Apparently there is a large difference in initial ball spin rates if you hit down as opposed to hitting up. The higher spin rates create more wasted energy when hitting down and that translates to a loss of distance. However, Brian claims that hitting down is better for control but that is not for certain because then we must get into club design considerations for loft, location of CG, shaft flex, etc.

Brian is not necessarily wrong as you mention, but the issue is what is actually happening in the golf swing through impact and whether Kelley is wrong to suggest that driver path must only be downwards at impact. I am suggesting that launch monitor data indicates that optimal driver performance is achieved with an ascending or level driver head path; not descending.

If you are convinced that hitting down with the driver is the best for you, then I would recommend that you test out your driver swing on a launch monitor to determine the degree you hit down, and what that is doing to your drives. Get some firm data on your driver swing so you will not be guessing.

As for hitting high on the driver face, that is only like a 1/4 inch higher than the geometric center of the face, no more. Regardless whether you hit up or down, you should use a longer tee, at least 2 1/4 inches if you use a driver head in excess of 400cc volume. If you tee your ball up opposite your left foot to catch the ball on the upswing, I would recommend you consider using the maximum 4 inch tee to ensure a solid hit.

 

[Brian Manzella]

And what about the clubface on the way up...how in the world do you get the hinge action correct???????

 

[TGManMachine]

quote:Originally posted by Vaako


Ok - I'm on the map again.

It doesn't work the way you paint it. The problem is shoulders - left arm - golf club isn't a stiff system. Even if you lock the shoulder joint (glue the upper arm to chest) there is movement in wrist joint. Uncocking and rolling from releasing accumulators 2 and 3.

Accumulator 3 roll alone - as in swinger's sequental release - is enough to produce descending angle of clubhead attack when the left arm is going down towards the low point (under the left shoulder). Here the rate of descent from accumulator 3 release is much greter then the rate of ascent from raising left shoulder. You seem to overlook the accumulator 3 release in your theory.

Only ways to get the clubhead to ascending mode before left shoulder - as your swingcenter in the base of the neck theory demands - are chicken winging, flipping and extreme standing up. These are all by definition swing faults.

How does this natural/single axis swing world view work for you in practice - assuming you're an active player?


Vaako

Do you have any definitive proof to verify your verbal description of what you believe to be happening through impact? Can you back up your claims with launch monitor measurements and legitimate geometric proofs which illustrate your assertions?

I didn't think so.

 

[TGManMachine]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

And what about the clubface on the way up...how in the world do you get the hinge action correct???????

Perhaps the hinge action is stabilized at the bottom of the swing approaching impact so that you can get satisfactory descending and ascending driver head paths. Geometrically there is only very small differences between an ascending and descending tangents when you are swinging around such a large radius circle.

The differences show up in impact physics where the interface between the club face and ball will result in different launch conditions and affect efficiency. A descending hit is less efficient than an ascending hit for distance, but possibly the opposite for control as you suggest.

I would appreciate your response to my questions about Kelley and the centers of rotation. Thanks.