This ENDS all the DRIVER hits up or down debate!

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Vaako

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quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

quote:Originally posted by Vaako


Ok - I'm on the map again.

It doesn't work the way you paint it. The problem is shoulders - left arm - golf club isn't a stiff system. Even if you lock the shoulder joint (glue the upper arm to chest) there is movement in wrist joint. Uncocking and rolling from releasing accumulators 2 and 3.

Accumulator 3 roll alone - as in swinger's sequental release - is enough to produce descending angle of clubhead attack when the left arm is going down towards the low point (under the left shoulder). Here the rate of descent from accumulator 3 release is much greter then the rate of ascent from raising left shoulder. You seem to overlook the accumulator 3 release in your theory.

Only ways to get the clubhead to ascending mode before left shoulder - as your swingcenter in the base of the neck theory demands - are chicken winging, flipping and extreme standing up. These are all by definition swing faults.

How does this natural/single axis swing world view work for you in practice - assuming you're an active player?


Vaako
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Do you have any definitive proof to verify your verbal description of what you believe to be happening through impact? Can you back up your claims with launch monitor measurements and legitimate geometric proofs which illustrate your assertions?

I didn't think so.
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So TGManMachine - you are EdZ?


Vaako
 
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Vaako

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quote:Originally posted by brianman

No TGMan is Horton.
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Ok, why is TGManMachine/Horton butting into the discussion - ontopic, done in good form, intresting (to me at least) - on the exact point were EdZ is faced with an exact factual description why the low point cannot be at the base of the neck.

By the way - there is no way to prove I'm wrong, and therefore only way forward is to say "EdZ was wrong" or start this lame trolling stuff.

And what happens right on que ....?

EDIT: I was a little disappointed this discussion took the sudden turn to south.


Vaako
 
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Martee

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quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Homer just said that IF the head is staionary, the arc would be centered.
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Where did Kelley say: "IF"?

Under what circumstances did Kelley say that the head is NOT the center of the swing arc?

Can you clarify your swing geometry in regard to my above post requesting whether you consider the center of rotation at impact to be centered in the left shoulder or the torso center, or possibly even farther back at the head as in Magruder Jr's pic?

I trust that you as a GSED will be able to satisfactorily resolve these issues. Thanks.
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Try the first 2 paragraphs of 2-H (last sentence of 2hd paragraph). Homer says it isn't mandatory.
 
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matt

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quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

If you assume the center of rotation is the left shoulder, then the attack angle is negative or descending.

If you assume the center or rotation is the back tilted spinal axis at the neck, then the attack angle is positive or ascending.
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Herein lies the problem.

As has been discussed ad nauseum, the center of the circle is the outside edge of the left shoulder. The center of the BODY is the center of the pivot rotation, but not of the geometric stroke.
 
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TGManMachine

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quote:Originally posted by Martee
Try the first 2 paragraphs of 2-H (last sentence of 2hd paragraph). Homer says it isn't mandatory.
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Yes thanks Martee, but what is the alternative if the Head Pivot Center is not mandatory?

When we read 2-J-1 & 2, we are told by Kelley that the center of the arc is the Left Shoulder. Is this fact or only assertion?

This is what I am disputing given that the Left Arm is held connected to the Left Pec and thus left arm rotation around the left shoulder through impact is nil and the rotation of the arm-club assembly around the torso or head center around the spinal axis.

If the left arm rotates in unison with the torso going through impact, then the center of rotation for the left arm must be the torso or even head center. Just look at Brian's own iron swing in his signature.gif and you will see the left arm rotating with the torso through impact. What more do you need?

Who disputes that and why? Nobody seems to want to broach this fact.
 
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TGManMachine

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quote:Originally posted by matt

quote:Originally posted by TGManMachine

If you assume the center of rotation is the left shoulder, then the attack angle is negative or descending.

If you assume the center or rotation is the back tilted spinal axis at the neck, then the attack angle is positive or ascending.
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Herein lies the problem.

As has been discussed ad nauseum, the center of the circle is the outside edge of the left shoulder. The center of the BODY is the center of the pivot rotation, but not of the geometric stroke.
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First, the left wrist is flat approaching and through impact resulting in an inline alignment of the left arm and club shaft, so there can be no more rotation around the left wrist joint.

Then the upper left arm is held firmly connected to the left pec as the torso rotates in unison with the left arm through impact. This is the point that Power Accumulator #4 is fully expended.

Also see 2-M-4 BODY POWER.

Do you dispute that the left arm rotation is in unison with body rotation through impact and therefore the only rotative center is within the torso?
 
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EdZ

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Vaako - you are not following me - lowpoint isn't at the base of the neck (verticle to the ground) it is a line perpendicular to the shoulder line at both arms straight FROM the base of the neck - so axis tilt is a big factor - as seen in this excellent impact position that Brian posted. At impact the right arm is still bent, as is the right wrist - therefore FORCE can still continue downplane, until both arms straight as the right arm straightens, and the left shoulder continues to move UP - as the 'triangle' of both arms straight, and the shoulder line, becomes quite clear.

THAT is the magic triangle, and its tip, PP#1.

Brian - can you draw that line and repost the pic please? Thanks

Matt the center of THE motion, of balance - all force rotates around that point, and hence balances that 'center of mass'. The 'shoulder center' is useful to see the 'lever', but is NOT the balance point, the center, of the force. This is why I think 2K needs clarification.
 
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Martee

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First let me say this topic is getting off topic. I really can't believe that Brian continues to try (read as beat his head against a concrete wall) to show that down is good. Yes as others have stated you can hit level and up but down is good and I would add level is as well. Brian I don't know how you do it!

Now what can replace the stationary head as the swing center, go with the spine, Edz has a particular spot he likes.

The Left shoulder being the center is in fact the center of the swing arc for the primary assembly (left arm and club). It is located on what can be a stationary or rotating/tilting platform (the shoulders span around the spine). This platform is also attached to another rotation/tilting/sliding platform (the hips).

Since the golf stroke can be a zero pivot to a full pivot, it would appear when describing and discussing a swing arc it would be limited to what is correct for both. Without any shoulder turn, you can still produce a golf stroke (short as it maybe)that indeed does have a swing arc. If you place that swing arc on a moving platform, it doesn't change the fact that swing arc is defined as it was defined before, it only adds another component making it a bit more complex.

As for the left arm 'being connected' that would be contrary to it blasting off and maintaining the integrity of the swing arc. In fact the only ways for the clubhead with this connection to come into contact would be either for the shoulders to rotate about 90* open or a heck of a lot of throwaway.

I initially responded to your question regarding the 'head'. The following is just some additional information. Homer subscribed to a stationary head. Any acceptable head movement would be a result of the pivot.
 
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EdZ

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pretty solid both arm straight position IMO - a bit closed, but the arms/shouders/ground angles are good, perhaps camera angles
 
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TGManMachine

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quote:Originally posted by Redgoat

Brian,

What do you think of this sequence?
http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/84599/1/2942907

Brady
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If you examine the pics of Hank Kuehne approaching impact and immediate followthrough, you will undoubtedly see that his left upper arm is fully connected to his left pec with no relative rotation around the left shoulder joint. His left arm rotates in unison with his torso, which indicates to me that his rotative center is in his upper torso. Also his left arm is glued to his left pec even when the club is horizontal in follow through.

You can choose the upper torso or the head as the rotative center in these pics, but you cannot say that the left arm is rotating around the left shoulder, and that's a fact. If the left arm is not rotating around the left shoulder, then the left arm is not a rotating radius, plain and simple.

The rotative radius must be drawn from the torso center to the ball. This circle geometry must produce a low point behind the ball and the driver head is ascending through impact.

Please advise is you agree/disagree with my analysis, and why. Thanks.
 
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TGManMachine

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quote:Originally posted by Martee

First let me say this topic is getting off topic. I really can't believe that Brian continues to try (read as beat his head against a concrete wall) to show that down is good. Yes as others have stated you can hit level and up but down is good and I would add level is as well. Brian I don't know how you do it!

Now what can replace the stationary head as the swing center, go with the spine, Edz has a particular spot he likes.

The Left shoulder being the center is in fact the center of the swing arc for the primary assembly (left arm and club). It is located on what can be a stationary or rotating/tilting platform (the shoulders span around the spine). This platform is also attached to another rotation/tilting/sliding platform (the hips).

Since the golf stroke can be a zero pivot to a full pivot, it would appear when describing and discussing a swing arc it would be limited to what is correct for both. Without any shoulder turn, you can still produce a golf stroke (short as it maybe)that indeed does have a swing arc. If you place that swing arc on a moving platform, it doesn't change the fact that swing arc is defined as it was defined before, it only adds another component making it a bit more complex.

As for the left arm 'being connected' that would be contrary to it blasting off and maintaining the integrity of the swing arc. In fact the only ways for the clubhead with this connection to come into contact would be either for the shoulders to rotate about 90* open or a heck of a lot of throwaway.

I initially responded to your question regarding the 'head'. The following is just some additional information. Homer subscribed to a stationary head. Any acceptable head movement would be a result of the pivot.
Click to expand...

Thank you Martee, but I don't think we are off topic. If hitting down on with a driver is "good", why is it that my launch monitor results optimized my swing with an ascending or positive attack angle on the ball? Why do LD competitors tee the ball high for an ascending driver path? All I am suggesting is that Kelley's 1980s technology does not match current technology on the issue of optimal driver head path. Why do some want to ignore good scientific data based on new technology? I'm sure Kelley wouldn't and would revise TGM to include new valid scientific fact.

Yes the Left shoulder is center of the swing arc for the primary assembly (left arm and club) provided the left arm is in fact rotating around the left shoulder joint. However approaching impact it is evident that rotation of the left arm around the left shoulder joint has stopped because the left arm and torso rotate in unison. This is more than evident in the redgoat sequence of Hank Kuehne and it even shows up on the moving.gif of Brian's swing signature. Why does it seem as if this fact is being ignored?

The left arm obviously rotates around the left shoulder joint from the top of the swing to just before impact. When the left arm is approaching the bottom of the swing it evidently stops rotating and connects to the left pec. The entire assembly, left arm, club and torso rotate in unison.

The center of rotation through impact is the upper torso and the bottom of the driver swing is before the ball and impact, provided you have teed the ball opposite the left foot. That to me is the geometry and mechanics of the driver swing.
 
Michael Finney

Michael Finney

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hey redgoat,

looks like kuenhe may want to rethink and retool his attack of the driver......4th in distance (way to go hank), 184th in accuracy.....(whoops)....only player more crooked than hank is david duval (who possibly could be diagnosed with tourrette's syndrome any minute now).....

find a better example
 
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