Threads like this make me sad....
- Thread starter Ringer
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Well a heck of a lot of handicap players lose the "angle" way too early.These players do need to work on this aspect.If you already have plenty then trying to get more might hurt your game.
The point is,the student improved.Does it really matter how it was done?Why feel sad because of some dogmatic assertion on how golf should be taught?
The point is,the student improved.Does it really matter how it was done?Why feel sad because of some dogmatic assertion on how golf should be taught?
S
SteveT
Guest
Ringer ... if you want to gain 'lag', don't accelerate greatly so that you can establish an easy lag position ... then when your hands are bottoming out, pour the right hand and arm into the final release ... or if you have 2 right hands all the better ....
Ringer ... if you want to gain 'lag', don't accelerate greatly so that you can establish an easy lag position ... then when your hands are bottoming out, pour the right hand and arm into the final release ... or if you have 2 right hands all the better ....
I have no such problems, trust me.
that person that ringer was referring to apparently is doing pretty well after 7 lessons. therefore, i don't think the mention, the discussion, the concept of lag should make anyone "sad". in fact, we should be very happy that someone after 7 lessons has quickly gained some level of proficiency and found joy...
more often than not, beginners cast their clubs. therefore, it is perfectly okay to introduce the term lag...it is biomechanically sound.
way too often, teachers and long term students of the game have grown to look at the teaching aspect from their own points of view and overlooked the perspectives of that of a beginner. that from point A to Z, it is okay to stop at places.
if a beginner wants to first use hands to hold the lag and play, i say, let him. trust him that with time--sooner than you think--he will come around and find that holding it perhaps is not the most efficient way to accomplish it. there are better ways to do it. but holding it is never wrong, like falling when babies first learn to walk. it is part of the process. a good teacher is one that is patient, observant and wise. not dismissive. try to be more empathetic.
cheers.
more often than not, beginners cast their clubs. therefore, it is perfectly okay to introduce the term lag...it is biomechanically sound.
way too often, teachers and long term students of the game have grown to look at the teaching aspect from their own points of view and overlooked the perspectives of that of a beginner. that from point A to Z, it is okay to stop at places.
if a beginner wants to first use hands to hold the lag and play, i say, let him. trust him that with time--sooner than you think--he will come around and find that holding it perhaps is not the most efficient way to accomplish it. there are better ways to do it. but holding it is never wrong, like falling when babies first learn to walk. it is part of the process. a good teacher is one that is patient, observant and wise. not dismissive. try to be more empathetic.
cheers.
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trickyric67
New
JMHO,
I have seen people go down the road of "creating lag" by holding the angle and have great success....for a while... then disaster usually strikes. I learned that lag was created by proper sequence of the kinetic chain and further proper pivot. I could feel the lag but I understood that I was not creating it but it was rather an effect of proper pivot.
I firmly believe that most golfers don't get better because they are doing exactly what their instructors tell them to do...
JMHO
Ric
I have seen people go down the road of "creating lag" by holding the angle and have great success....for a while... then disaster usually strikes. I learned that lag was created by proper sequence of the kinetic chain and further proper pivot. I could feel the lag but I understood that I was not creating it but it was rather an effect of proper pivot.
I firmly believe that most golfers don't get better because they are doing exactly what their instructors tell them to do...
JMHO
Ric
in fact, if the ringer is the same ringer from another forum and the golfdad is the same golfdad, i would like to ask a question here:
i asked ringer there: Quote: Originally Posted by golfdad
ringer, is the lag in some ways a reflection of the effectiveness and efficiency of the lower body mechanics? that is, if one transitions correctly with the proper weight shift, the lag will form or max out naturally at the wrist?
ringer replied: Nope. Toss out that book.
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please help educate me what was wrong with my understanding and what new book to subscribe to? having better and more golf related knowledge is a blessing, a gift. please share it. thanks
ric: on "creating lag". what you have described has 2 parts to it. the concept of lag and the wrong way and right way to go about it. just because some wrongly created the lag does not make the concept of lag invalid, does it?
i asked ringer there: Quote: Originally Posted by golfdad
ringer, is the lag in some ways a reflection of the effectiveness and efficiency of the lower body mechanics? that is, if one transitions correctly with the proper weight shift, the lag will form or max out naturally at the wrist?
ringer replied: Nope. Toss out that book.
-----
please help educate me what was wrong with my understanding and what new book to subscribe to? having better and more golf related knowledge is a blessing, a gift. please share it. thanks
ric: on "creating lag". what you have described has 2 parts to it. the concept of lag and the wrong way and right way to go about it. just because some wrongly created the lag does not make the concept of lag invalid, does it?
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Hmm, not quite sure what is "sad". Student seems pretty happy.
This:
As I stated in the other thread I am thrilled he is hitting it better too and if "sustaining the lag" is helping him hit it better great. But it's a short walk from there to "get more distance".
I have never once had to teach someone to "sustain the lag". Accelerate, yes. Teach them a BRW/FLW yes. But never once had to utter the words "sustain the lag".
As I stated in the other thread I am thrilled he is hitting it better too and if "sustaining the lag" is helping him hit it better great. But it's a short walk from there to "get more distance".
I have never once had to teach someone to "sustain the lag". Accelerate, yes. Teach them a BRW/FLW yes. But never once had to utter the words "sustain the lag".
birly-shirly
New
Ringer - I understand what you're saying, but it was also my impression that the student has maybe been "self-educating". I imagine that half the battle for instructors is dealing with the various preconceptions and external tips and learning that get brought to the lesson tee.
I don't know - but it wasn't obvious to me that the instructor in that case was teaching lag (AKA Lag) explicitly. And if he was, maybe it was in response to a direct inquiry from the student. Or maybe it was warranted? Have you seen the swing in question?
I don't know - but it wasn't obvious to me that the instructor in that case was teaching lag (AKA Lag) explicitly. And if he was, maybe it was in response to a direct inquiry from the student. Or maybe it was warranted? Have you seen the swing in question?
Yes he posted some video and really there isn't much difference that we can tell. Very big wrist angles in a before and in the after video. Swings very far left.
trickyric67
New
In my limited experience I have found that when a golfer forces lag by holding the angles it is short lived and ends up creating other swing issues such as the shanks as an extreme, or loss of the ability to properly release the wrist angle and therefore a loss of power.
To be clear, this is just from my own experiences, just my opinion and what I have had many instructors over the years tell me.
ric, thanks for that explanation. i can see that happening,,, what you are concerned about. my feeling regarding the lag is that many beginners are not that intuitive in terms of knowing how to set the wrists correctly. i can understand that some would say,,,well, if you do it right, the wrists set themselves. but some, not all, need a little more guidance.
but i concur that it should be made clear that the hinging is not meant to be a locking mechanism. it is a dynamic thing.
also, i want to elaborate further on my criticism if you will on ringer's take on that student's take on the lag. i appreciate straight talk very much when dealing with people. i say what i see and feel. i think ringer's reaction to that student was similar. i hope ringer takes my comments as opinions and exchanges. not long ago, ringer did an analysis on my younger one's swing. it helped a ton. ringer was able to explain things in depth and comprehensively and right to the point, a very cohesive synthesis. a smart guy.
i just want smart guys being more patient and tolerant with those who want to wonder a bit
. but some, not all, need a little more guidance.but i concur that it should be made clear that the hinging is not meant to be a locking mechanism. it is a dynamic thing.
also, i want to elaborate further on my criticism if you will on ringer's take on that student's take on the lag. i appreciate straight talk very much when dealing with people. i say what i see and feel. i think ringer's reaction to that student was similar. i hope ringer takes my comments as opinions and exchanges. not long ago, ringer did an analysis on my younger one's swing. it helped a ton. ringer was able to explain things in depth and comprehensively and right to the point, a very cohesive synthesis. a smart guy.
i just want smart guys being more patient and tolerant with those who want to wonder a bit
Todd Dugan
New
Day 7? I work on the angle between the clubshaft and left arm, at impact, on Day 1! One of Homer Kelley's great epiphanies was "Working on anything else first is a waste of time". It's not just a full swing thing. First you'll learn to not bend the wrists when putting. Then on a chip, with a short 45* to 45* swing. You'll have a clear picture of where the HANDLE needs to be at impact for all strokes to achieve the optimum clubshaft lag angle. The only thing I'd fix BEFORE a flip is dynamic balance and grip at address. I like to get folks hitting the ball MUCH BETTER RIGHT AWAY. This gets them exited and confident in my abilities as a teacher. We can always go back and fine-tune. But if you'd rather spend 6 weeks on the takeaway.................go to GolfTEC.
Todd Dugan
New
You're teaching the same alignments but just explaining it differently. You CAN consciously try to "hold" the left wrist from bending. I do it with putting and chipping with good results. Or you can try to "drive" the "upper" lever (left arm) faster with an efficient kinetic chain. 2 different means to the same end.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
What if Joe Teacher posted, "I have NEVER had to teach anyone to ever get their hands ahead. Ever. Sustain the lag, sure. But intentionally getting their hands ahead. I wouldnt teach it with your Casio."
Would they be any better? Whatever means gets the results.
Understand. I have no problem with it getting the results. I'm just cautious about what it leads to.
We want the hands ahead so that we are striking "down" on the ball right? Making a clean strike of the ball before the clubhead hits the turf. I can "sustain the lag" so late that I can miss the ball entirely if I chose to.
For right now it may work, but the instructor has already begun to introduce the idea that lag makes him hit it further.
He's already swinging so far left and with an open face. The "before" swing had PLENTY of hands ahead, why he or the teacher thinks there needs to be more lag is an absolute mystery other than to just throw ideas at him and see what sticks.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGuNSMUX8Kc[/media]
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