Timing/Rythm (a question for Art)

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Hi,

Art often writes that according to his research timing/rhythm and dynamic stability are very important.

However, believing FULLY that inconsistent TEMPO/RHYTHM, and/or dynamic unbalances are responsible for ALL swing faults, I have engaged with several learned sports scientists to open up the subject/thinking of "how long does it take to IMPROVE to be a golfer with varying degrees of capability.

... their ability to improve is TOTALLY controlled by their capability to create and repeat consistent TEMPO/RHYTHM

is it only important to have a consistent tempo or does your research validate the 'TourTempo' ratio of 3:1 (Backswing 3 times longer then downswing).

How do you find the tempo/rhythm that is optimal for you? Do you e.g. count the frames from the beginning of the downswing to impact and then multiply it by 3? If I remember correctly TourTempo has 21:7, 24:8 and 27:9 tracks. So if your downswing takes about 9 frames (a 30 fps) you should practise with a 27:9 track?

Regards

ParHunter
 

Dariusz J.

New member
I'd say the most important two things to provide a good rhythm are:
- trigger compression;
- passivity/activity of proper body sides in the sagittal plane.
My motion wasn't fluid at all before so I really have a good perspective.

Cheers
 
I've got the TourTempo tracks on my iPhone so I sometimes use these (but really only once in a while).

Do you listen to any music or do you choose them by the beat/rhythm? Do you listen to the same song on repeat? How do you hamdle songs with a different beat?

As I wrote in another thread I seem to play best when I've got an ear worm so it might be a good idea just to listen to some music.
 
I've got the TourTempo tracks on my iPhone so I sometimes use these (but really only once in a while).

Do you listen to any music or do you choose them by the beat/rhythm? Do you listen to the same song on repeat? How do you hamdle songs with a different beat?

As I wrote in another thread I seem to play best when I've got an ear worm so it might be a good idea just to listen to some music.

I listen to music that has sections or parts that I seem to latch onto just because I like them.

Never really thought about why I like them but I do groove the swing together during these episodes

better than when I'm not listening to any music.
 

ZAP

New
I sometimes take my Ipod to the range and just wear the ear buds so I can ignore people. The right song makes practicing really fun.
 
I sometimes take my Ipod to the range and just wear the ear buds so I can ignore people. The right song makes practicing really fun.

I do the same. Alot of families use the range I often go to, and you hear alot of "Daddy...daddy...daddy...watch this! Daddy...daddy..." and then "Shh, people are trying to concentrate buddy." Repeat. Again, and again. Or middle aged guy having extra loud conversation on the cell phone with someone who is apparently hard of hearing. Sometimes the MP3 player is a must.

Anyways, I tend to get a little quick in my tempo so I like to pick something to slow me down a bit when I'm off. Reggae, or some Blues guitar rock is always a good option for me.
 

art

New
Hi,

Art often writes that according to his research timing/rhythm and dynamic stability are very important.



is it only important to have a consistent tempo or does your research validate the 'TourTempo' ratio of 3:1 (Backswing 3 times longer then downswing).

How do you find the tempo/rhythm that is optimal for you? Do you e.g. count the frames from the beginning of the downswing to impact and then multiply it by 3? If I remember correctly TourTempo has 21:7, 24:8 and 27:9 tracks. So if your downswing takes about 9 frames (a 30 fps) you should practise with a 27:9 track?

Regards

ParHunter

Dear ParHunter,

Thanks for your questions, and looking at your location realize that a few years ago I corresponded with Professor Robin Sharp, University of Surrey, after he published "On the mechanics of the golf swing", a paper very worth reading. If you know or have access to him PLEASE let me know.

Regarding your questions,

(1) it is CRUCIAL that you have a TEMPO that is not only consistent (for the same energy levels) but IDENTICAL to your natural tempo/resonance. I will explain how to determine YOUR tempo, but first want to note that the further you deviate from your natural tempo, the more you increase the potential to generate and propagate undesirable velocity, position and swing path errors.

(2) Here is how to determine/establish YOUR natural tempo.

Simply, WARM UP, take your driver, set up normally, and without hitting a ball take 5-10 golf swings (AT AN INTERMEDIATE ENERGY LEVEL), back and forth, without stopping, like a pendulum, grand fathers clock, metronome etc.

Now, increase the energy level to that necessary to hit your normal tee shot, and take 10 more full BACK AND FORTH swings paying STRICT attention to the TEMPO/RHYTHM YOUR body has established. THIS IS YOUR UNIQUE TEMPO FOR THIS FULL SWING ENERGY LEVEL FOR ALL CLUBS, and if forgotten, on the range, or heaven forbid for the critical shot during the 'Club Championship', simply back off, and without a ball, repeat this exercise for 5 or so full back and forth swings. Then move right into the critical shot AND DUPLICATE THE TEMPO/RHYTHM.

During and subsequent swing after this TEMPO establishing exercise, get used to, by AWARENESS, asking yourself the simple questions (1) was this the SAME TEMPO ?, or (2) was it faster ??, or (3) was it slower ??. IMO, but with hours of testing on many others, I have found that there is a STRONG correlation between the NATURAL TEMPO, and the BEST and consistent shots. The critical part is getting used to establishing the natural TEMPO for the day, and repeating it as measured by your commitment to 'post swing self AWARENESS.

(3) Now for the meat of your remaining question, do I just multiply the down swing time by 3 to get 21/7, 24/8, 27/9 etc ??

I am indebted to the enlightening research of Drs. Robert Grober and Jacek Cholewicki,(Towards a Bio mechanical Understanding of Tempo in the Golf Swing and Sr. and Jr. John Novosel (Tour Tempo), for being the cornerstones of my curiosity, and then applied research and testing in this area.

The findings in "Tour Tempo" of a dominant 3:1 ratio of back swing time to downswing time was further studied, analyzed, and as the authors said, mathematically modeled in the above noted paper. The basic approach/assumption was that the torso acted like a torsional spring loading during the back swing, and then more rapidly, unloading during the downswing. Although their findings indicated there were 'non linearities' as a function of torque (back swing depth) and this initial study was just "to a first order", the study uncertainties seemed well within the other statistical uncertainties/differences between golfers, capabilities swing styles, etc. and therefore IMO, was very worthy of significantly more research and testing.

To this end, I looked into this a little further and offer that just counting and/or measuring back swing and down swing time and dividing the two has limited value, and limited accuracy. The distortion comes with regard to the time required for the specific golfers 'transition phase' where at least the hips/pelvis have started the downswing, but the golf club has not. Swing style can further lengthen the 'transition' duration, and if included in the back swing time, could move the ratio from 3:1 towards 4:1.

BUT DO NOT DESPAIR, for if you have a 'normal' transition, do just as you suggested and multiply and practice to the 27/9 ratio you stated. If you see (from the video, that you for instance, have a squatting-like transition, or some other time-consuming transition, I would suggest practicing with the next longest Tour Tempo track, ie, 30/10 if you have a 9 frame downswing time as measured by the turn around of the club, until impact.

In summary, (1) DETERMINE THE TEMPO/RHYTHM of your natural characteristics, (2) Take several real swings, hitting a ball and check by SELF AWARENESS, after the hit if you matched your natural TEMPO/RHYTHM, and if so USE THOSE VIDEOS to select the specific Tour Tempo track with which to practice. (3), please let me/us know the results
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I'd say the most important two things to provide a good rhythm are:
- trigger compression;
- passivity/activity of proper body sides in the sagittal plane.
My motion wasn't fluid at all before so I really have a good perspective.

Cheers

Exactly what I told the beginner ladies clinic the other day.
 
I'd say the most important two things to provide a good rhythm are:
- trigger compression;
- passivity/activity of proper body sides in the sagittal plane.
My motion wasn't fluid at all before so I really have a good perspective.

Cheers
I was born on November 27th, so I definitely have both my body sides in the Sagittal plane. Couple more days and I'd have slipped into the Capricornial plane instead...Shame.
My stars for yesterday...
"Venus, Mercury and Neptune are aligned, but your feet, hips and shoulders ain't. The number 80 is in your future."

Hey, they were right. Maybe there's more to this star-sign mullarky than meets the eye.
 
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Dariusz J.

New member
Exactly what I told the beginner ladies clinic the other day.

I understand your irony, but, first, I am not writing to beginner ladies but to a group of the best instructors on this planet, as I often hear; secondly, this site aspires to be a scientific site, thereofore the terms such as "compression" or "sagittal plane" should be understood easily -- certainly they are more appropriate to a science-based site than these commonly used here as e.g. "tumble".
I often use scientific words and expressions because they guarantee no errors in understanding.
If anyone has problems with understanding and/or is lazy enough to check e.g. in Wikipedia -- just it is enough to ask the author for explaining it wider.

Isn't it like it should be done ?


I was born on November 27th, so I definitely have both my body sides in the Sagittal plane. Couple more days and I'd have slipped into the Capricornial plane instead...Shame.
My stars for yesterday...
"Venus, Mercury and Neptune are aligned, but your feet, hips and shoulders ain't. The number 80 is in your future."

Hey, they were right. Maybe there's more to this star-sign mullarky than meets the eye.

Geez...it is easy to gain popularity here on ridiculing my posts, isn't it ?

Cheers
 
Dear ParHunter,
Thanks for your questions, and looking at your location realize that a few years ago I corresponded with Professor Robin Sharp, University of Surrey, after he published "On the mechanics of the golf swing", a paper very worth reading. If you know or have access to him PLEASE let me know.
Dear Art,

sorry that I can't be of help here, my University days are long over and I didn't even study in the UK. I am sure the Press Office of Surrey University (mediarelations@surrey.ac.uk) can get you in touch with Prof. Sharp.

Many thanks for your detailed answer. I found the part about the transition especially interesting as I have a 'longish' transition due to a long backswing.

I've got the Orange Whip trainer which I use for warm up. I think this device will be quite useful to 'feel' and discover my natural tempo, or do you advise to use a normal weighted club? The Orange Whip trainer is a weighted 'whippy' club)
 

art

New
Dear Art,

sorry that I can't be of help here, my University days are long over and I didn't even study in the UK. I am sure the Press Office of Surrey University (mediarelations@surrey.ac.uk) can get you in touch with Prof. Sharp.

Many thanks for your detailed answer. I found the part about the transition especially interesting as I have a 'longish' transition due to a long backswing.

I've got the Orange Whip trainer which I use for warm up. I think this device will be quite useful to 'feel' and discover my natural tempo, or do you advise to use a normal weighted club? The Orange Whip trainer is a weighted 'whippy' club)

Dear ParHunter,

I did go to the Orange Whip site and uncovered that in addition to the shaft of the device being very flexible, it weighs almost 3 times the weight of a normal driver.

Both of these differences make it real easy to say NO, do not try to determine your BODIES TEMPO/RHYTHM with ANYTHING EXCEPT YOUR CLUBS.

That in no way precludes you from 'training' with the device as it is intended to be used, but when it is time to determine, measure (by Awareness) the quality of your swings, then video them to finally arrive at a 'real golf club/ParHunter' integrated Tempo, please just use the real clubs.

If you need or desire a more scientific explanation, please read the Dr. Grober paper, and I will guide you through the applicable sections, and show you why using the Orange Whip instead of the real golf club is not a good idea.
 
Orange Whip is good for stretching yourself out and making full swing motions in the process, kinda like how Tom Watson likes to warm up with the longest iron in the bag. As far as tempo...nah. I swing it for a couple minutes after I get out of the car then toss it back in the trunk.
 
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