To my friend DA

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dene

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David,

David Laville and I are the only ones in this forum who have seen you hit the ball. I can't speak for DL but I'm on record for testifying that you indeed have a suberb golf swing which results in consistent, impressive ball striking.

I also believe you understand the fundamentals of a golf swing and furthermore, are intelligent and articulate enough to explain it.

When I entered into this forum, I looked forward to a debate by which you would give serious challenge to the TGM-ers, enabling hacks like me to distinguish what is truth, what isn't.

But you haven't debated. You've dissed and danced, complaining about the rules, etc. Frankly David, I'm surprised by this.....you can do better!

You should easily be able to tell us what specific principles HK was correct in.....where he was incorrect, but you haven't. So I'm asking you, David. What specifically was heresy....what was truth??

I'm going to say the following based on personal experience re. your hero, Ben Hogan. The last swing theory I seriously digested was Hogan's 5 Fundamentals. I spent the winter of 2000 implementing all his fundamentals to the nth degree. Result.....a bad slice became substantially worse. My handicap rose to 19 and I gave serious thought about quitting the game. Fortunately, someone enlightened me that Hogan's book is not for the average golfer (slicer). His book, particularily the secret (cupped left wrist) should be renamed, "How I Cured My Hook."

That being said, for the first time since my Hogan winter, I'm now taking a serious look at TGM and I'm loving the results. I'm consciously achieving a flat left wrist at the top and experiencing a unique feeling as a result.....lag. My ball striking, though not comparable to yours, is better than ever.

But....it's possible that HK doesn't have the corner on the truth. It's quite conceivable that you have some insight too, ala "truth in the dirt." Please....JUST SAY IT DAVID!

If you can't/won't, then consider running for office (as a democrat). :>

Hopefully still your friend,

-Greg
 
I am not David, but I too have a reputation on a few forums as anti-TGM.

What I have found to be of most interest is not a debate on specific body movements which TGM attempts to catalog. It is more about the mind to body connection which often creates tension between TGMers and us non-TGMers. However, there ARE some technical issues which I do have with TGM. The first and foremost in my mind is that of the clubface being controled by the hands. I can quite clearly demonstrate otherwise, however any time I have shown the example it has been confronted not by fact, but by personal attack.

As an effect, I have sought to only fight my battles with those TGM advocates who have not attempted to lower the conversation into a pissing contest and personal insults. My experience with Brian (way back when) was not very fondly remembered... nor many others who are non-TGMers. I am hoping that my inclusion into this board will allow for an open debate to be conducted, and perhaps an attempt to re-write what my impression of Brian is. I have heard a great many things about him, and I do not doubt that many people do experience good things from Brian's instruction.
 
quote:Originally posted by Ringer

I am not David, but I too have a reputation on a few forums as anti-TGM.

What I have found to be of most interest is not a debate on specific body movements which TGM attempts to catalog. It is more about the mind to body connection which often creates tension between TGMers and us non-TGMers. However, there ARE some technical issues which I do have with TGM. The first and foremost in my mind is that of the clubface being controled by the hands. I can quite clearly demonstrate otherwise, however any time I have shown the example it has been confronted not by fact, but by personal attack.

As an effect, I have sought to only fight my battles with those TGM advocates who have not attempted to lower the conversation into a pissing contest and personal insults. My experience with Brian (way back when) was not very fondly remembered... nor many others who are non-TGMers. I am hoping that my inclusion into this board will allow for an open debate to be conducted, and perhaps an attempt to re-write what my impression of Brian is. I have heard a great many things about him, and I do not doubt that many people do experience good things from Brian's instruction.

hey Ringer, i have missed your view-debate on the clubface, mind explaining your side of it? i think it could be a very interesting debate, not a peeing thing...
 

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by Ringer

I am not David, but I too have a reputation on a few forums as anti-TGM.

The first and foremost in my mind is that of the clubface being controled by the hands. I can quite clearly demonstrate otherwise...

For the true Swinger, Centrifugal Force controls the Clubhead Power and the Clubface Alignment.

For 'Manipulated Clubface' Swingers, Centrifugal Force controls only the Clubhead; the Clubface is best aligned by the Flat Left Wrist executing its Hinge Action (2-G and 7-10).

For Hitters, Muscular Thrust Powers the Clubhead, and the Flat Left Wrist aligns the Clubface.
 

dene

New
quote:Originally posted by holenone

quote:Originally posted by Ringer

I am not David, but I too have a reputation on a few forums as anti-TGM.

The first and foremost in my mind is that of the clubface being controled by the hands. I can quite clearly demonstrate otherwise...

For the true Swinger, Centrifugal Force controls the Clubhead Power and the Clubface Alignment.

For 'Manipulated Clubface' Swingers, Centrifugal Force controls only the Clubhead; the Clubface is best aligned by the Flat Left Wrist executing its Hinge Action (2-G and 7-10).

For Hitters, Muscular Thrust Powers the Clubhead, and the Flat Left Wrist aligns the Clubface.

All right....some serious debate! Thanks for raising this issue, Ringer.

Yoda,

Can you cite 3 or more pros who are swingers, manipulated clubface swingers, and hitters.

I presume Payne Stewart is a classic swinger and Stadler is a hitter. Who would be in the middle....Mickelson, Tiger????

-Greg
 
Greg, the fact is, my only major objections to HK at this point have been 1) the specifics of his article on Bobby Clampett in the Swing Sequence Forum 2) HK's writing style.

My objections to the "gurus" in this forum is that they act like a pack of wolves. Anyone who disputes any element of their belief system, they want to knock down and tear to pieces. But that's "whining", right?

EdZ and others who have emailed me privately have experienced this, and you will too if you post anything cirticizing HK or TGM. You will be guaranteed to receive a near instaneous attack rather than a logical response. And it will turn personal very quickly if you don't back down.

Believe me, I understand very well the "harder you push the more resistance you get". I have an ultimate aim in mind, and don't mind one bit the incoming strikes. The lack of fair play disappoints me, but I understand it.

It's all useful to me.It's helped determine the direction of my writing and how to anticipate the way people react.

Yes, you are still my friend and hope you keep in mind my online persona is just that - a persona.

Take care,

David Alford
 
P.S. While Hogan was heroic, I have my criticsms of his book. It reads superbly but I don't think you can understand what he really did from it. There are significnt errors. I try to be fair, and as a consequence, won't hesitate to point them out at the appropriate time.
 

dene

New
quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Greg, the fact is, my only major objections to HK at this point have been 1) the specifics of his article on Bobby Clampett in the Swing Sequence Forum 2) HK's writing style.

So in essence, you agree with TGM?

My objections to the "gurus" in this forum is that they act like a pack of wolves. Anyone who disputes any element of their belief system, they want to knock down and tear to pieces. But that's "whining", right?

It is unless you have specific points that you can back up. But I do agree that there is a wolf mentality. The "superdave" stuff is uncalled for. However, you could defeat this with careful assertions, which is what I've been waiting for.

EdZ and others who have emailed me privately have experienced this, and you will too if you post anything cirticizing HK or TGM. You will be guaranteed to receive a near instaneous attack rather than a logical response. And it will turn personal very quickly if you don't back down.

I've questioned a couple of things and received very satisfactory responses.

Believe me, I understand very well the "harder you push the more resistance you get". I have an ultimate aim in mind, and don't mind one bit the incoming strikes. The lack of fair play disappoints me, but I understand it.

Truth will always prevail if there is sufficient courage, time, and clarity.

It's all useful to me.It's helped determine the direction of my writing and how to anticipate the way people react.

Yes, you are still my friend and hope you keep in mind my online persona is just that - a persona.

Yep....we're both nicer in person.

-Greg
 
I don't recall any disputes with anything HK specifically said in his book, but I may have some. It's been years since I've looked at it. I will be looking at it again at some point, now that my research is closing down.

Questioning on this forum is OK. You'll get a different repsonse if you criticize HK or TGM, esp. if you don't beat around the bush.

Re: criticism specifics, I did that re: HK's analysis on Bobby Clampett's swing although holenone and mgjordan gave spirited rebuttals. Did people appreciate my SPECIFIC assertions? No. I was attacked personally time after time.

P.S. Dlaville only saw me hit balls with an alternate swing I use when my back goes "out". We got along very well. You've seen my ball striking twice. The last time you weren't supposed to, cuz' of the shoulder injury. Thanks for the kind words, though.
 
quote:Originally posted by brianman

Why?

He hasn't yet, and wait til Ringer chimes in with his dribble. David will sound like a genius. If you want to learn about TGM, or at the very least a sound TGM based golf swing, this is the place. If you just want to refute everything most of seriously study, then senseless arguing will waste everyones valuable time. Neither David or Ringer ever on any forum ever cared one iota for TGM.
 

Mathew

Banned
David Alford has alot to learn about civility and getting on with others...

It is ENTIRELY possible to show your views without creating annoyance with the forum (which I believe is DA whole purpose of being here)....

Let me give you an example

"HK is just plain WRONG !"

and how you should of written it is

"I have to say im not in total agreement with Homer here"

Does that detract from spreading your view accurately - of course not! Just one incites arguement and the other incites debate. This forum is not unwelcoming to non-TGM'ers, its just when people are basically showing no humility when in discussion.

Its actually a strange thing. As many of you know, I had a (not so) slight attitude and reiled people up in FGI deliberately and I believed by doing this I was doing the forum a service but corrected in my ways now - all I want is a good and hopefully educational discussion about the topics at hand. People like DA probably believe they are creating good debate, when infact all that they produce is **** flinging contests which in DA case he always badly looses and this detracts the attention off the good debate....
 

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by David Alford
My objections to the "gurus" in this forum is that they act like a pack of wolves. Anyone who disputes any element of their belief system, they want to knock down and tear to pieces.

David Alford

It's a 'wolf eat wolf' world, SuperDave.

And I've got 'wolf' on my breath!

:D
 
I must admit though, the pissing matches (yes, the same ones I was whining about in an earlier post) seem to have borne some positives, that is, all of the really knowledgeable TGM posters from the other sites have migrated over here and begun to post very informative stuff (and even translate the jargon into regular folks talk on occasion). So thanks to DA for stirring things up.
 
quote:Originally posted by efnef

I must admit though, the pissing matches (yes, the same ones I was whining about in an earlier post) seem to have borne some positives, that is, all of the really knowledgeable TGM posters from the other sites have migrated over here and begun to post very informative stuff (and even translate the jargon into regular folks talk on occasion). So thanks to DA for stirring things up.

Listen: any migration to this site was due to the fact that Yoda is now posting here more then there. DA had NOTHING to do with sheet.
 
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