I was fitted last year for some irons. I am having an awful time finding the sweetspot on my irons this year(toe hits). I was fitted for irons 2 degrees upright. My swing path was consitently 1 to 2 degrees inside out. Not sure what his 2 degree upright recommendation was based on but I thought an upright lie angle would be more for Over the Top swings? Any insight? Should I bend these suckers flat?
Toe hits and Lie Angles
- Thread starter conkanen
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Richie3Jack
New
They bent your lies 2* upright probably because you were hitting shots towards the toe. So the *theory* is that you just need to bend the clubs upright and you'll be good to go.
The problem is that it's just a band-aid treatment and what happens is you start to groove your swing to fit that more upright lie angle and eventually the shots off the toe start happening again.
We'd have to see your swing to get an idea of how flat you should bend them, plus know how tall you are, etc.
If you plan on working on your game to get better and are somewhat serious, I'd *suggest* that you will need to bend them flatter in the end. How much is a different story, though.
I'm 6'4" tall and play with irons that are 6* flat. I might get them moved a little more upright to 4* flat because of some swing changes I've made recently. If you have forged clubs, you can bend clubs up and down with ease. I recently had a Hogan 3-iron that had to be bent 9*...and did it with no problem.
3JACK
The problem is that it's just a band-aid treatment and what happens is you start to groove your swing to fit that more upright lie angle and eventually the shots off the toe start happening again.
We'd have to see your swing to get an idea of how flat you should bend them, plus know how tall you are, etc.
If you plan on working on your game to get better and are somewhat serious, I'd *suggest* that you will need to bend them flatter in the end. How much is a different story, though.
I'm 6'4" tall and play with irons that are 6* flat. I might get them moved a little more upright to 4* flat because of some swing changes I've made recently. If you have forged clubs, you can bend clubs up and down with ease. I recently had a Hogan 3-iron that had to be bent 9*...and did it with no problem.
3JACK
Richie3Jack
New
Yes, IMO, at your size, there's no reason to go to 2* upright.
Also, upright clubs make it more difficult to 'swing left.'
3JACK
Also, upright clubs make it more difficult to 'swing left.'
3JACK
Brian Manzella
Administrator
???
Richie, if your irons are 4 degrees flat, they CAN'T POSSIBLY be dynamically fit, huh?
conkanen, you need to hit balls on a lie board & check it with the "marked ball" test.
BEND THEM TO FIT DYNAMICALLY!!!!!!
Richie, if your irons are 4 degrees flat, they CAN'T POSSIBLY be dynamically fit, huh?
conkanen, you need to hit balls on a lie board & check it with the "marked ball" test.
BEND THEM TO FIT DYNAMICALLY!!!!!!
Richie3Jack
New
I think there's a lot more factors than dynamically fitting a club, especially if you want to put the work into developing your swing. And believe me, I've probably been thru more various fitting techniques and wide ranging fitting standards than anybody on this board. Currently I play clubs that are 6* flat. However, I've been fitted for clubs that were 5* upright. I was also fitted for clubs that were 1* upright, but +1" longer shafts.
The current clubs I had bent 6* flat in part because I wanted to flatten out my downswing. I think that I'm like a lot of golfers in that I tend to adjust to the lie angle after awhile and it did achieve my goal of flattening out my downswing and I hit the ball quite well in the process.
But, I recently changed my posture at address and made some tweaks to my downswing and I think I'm about 1-2* too flat for me now. That would still put me about 4-5* flat from standard. But the swing looks fine, I'm just off a hair.
I think one needs to figure out what type of downswing plane they are on, the dimensions of their body (height, arm length, length of the legs, etc), their height at their desired address position, and in general...what their desired swing is like. I think dynamically fitting a golfer just fits them for their current swing, which may have some kinks in it that they may want to get fixed in the future.
So....let's say you have some kinks in your swing where you are dynamically fitted for clubs that are 2* upright. Then when you try and work on your swing, you now have to fight those 2* upright lie angles.
I also wouldn't bother with a lie board if my life depended on it. The marker line test is excellent though.
And I also think it's a good argument for forged clubs, so you can easily bend the lie angles whenever some changes are being made.
I don't know conkanen's goals as a golfer, but if he's willing to put the work in to improve his swing, I would recommend that he bend them to about standard and find the right instuctor to help him figure out what his swing issues are. THEN, when those swing issues are resolved, get dynamically fit for the lie angles, except junk the lie board.
3JACK
I think that's where I am at now. I am fighting my natural swing. Like Brian said you are what you are as far as lie angle goes ( i think I read that somewhere).
Anyways, at 2* upright I feel like I need to make a real exaggerated Carry move (dare I say OTT?!?!) to hit the ball flush on the sweet spot. As soon as I abandon this move I don't hit it well at all. Does this jive???
Richie3Jack
New
The feedback from lie boards is faulty. I once read a paper on the internet showing that because of the design of the lie board test, it inaccurately has golfers with more upright lie angles than they need. The article was pretty convincing to me and when I thought about it, it did seem that everybody I knew that went on lie boards wound up getting more upright clubs in the end. Yet, the PGA Tour pros usually hover around standard lie angles, if not very flat lie angles. Unfortunately, I never favorited the article and I think it was took down because I haven't been able to find it since.
The marked ball test is taking a sharpie and drawing a straight, vertical line on the ball and getting some impact tape. You hit shots and then check where the line was left on the tape. This not only helps figure out the lie angle, but is great for individual fitting of irons because some may be a little diffferent do to different levels of shaft droop.
3JACK
Is every one of your irons bent 6* flat or are there variations as from standard static lie each club is different. Also how did you determine what your lie angles needed to be, did you do each club seperately and look at the shot pattern for that club or some other way?
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Richie3Jack
New
I had a swing with the downswing plane on the Turned Shoulder Plane. One of the things I wanted to do was go to the flatter, elbow plane. Here’s a look at a recent swing of mine.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-79HfkzyR5o[/media]
I tried 6* flat of about standard. Although everybody’s ‘standards’ are different these days. So here’s my typical lie angles:
2-iron: 52* lie angle
3-iron: 53* lie angle
4-iron: 54* lie angle
5-iorn: 55* lie angle
6-iron: 56* lie angle
7-iron: 57* lie angle
8-iron: 58* lie angle
9-iron: 59* lie angle
PW: 59* lie angle
SW: 59* lie angle
LW: 59* lie angle
The 6* flat was suggested to me. I have 7 different sets of vintage, forged blades that I get cheap off of eBay. A few of the sets are some of the best I’ve ever hit. And the forgings back then are very soft, so they are easy t o bend. For instance, we wound up bending my Hogan Apex PC 3-iron 9* without an issue. They also have long necks on them, making them easier to bend as well.
Bending them 6* flat of standard was more or less something done to help with my swing. But for the most part, I was having no problems making square contact consistently. In fact, I recently went 72 holes of golf and only mis-hitting 1 shot in that span…a downhill lie with a 4-iron (caught it fat).
But, my backswing eventually started to sour and I didn’t like my posture at address. I still wanted a flat downswing and thus the swing in the video above. With that swing in the above video, the irons are now about 1-2* too flat. Still, that’s lie angles about 4-5* flat from standard and at 6’4” tall.
Kevin Shields is shorter in height than me, but swings on the more upright TSP, so in my mind he should be closer to standard.
But I think anything more than 1* upright from standard is really ruining your chances to swing the club consistently well with the possible OTT move coming into play and I think upright clubs take away the golfer’s ability to use ground forces to power their pivot.
Plus, I found that going to flatter clubs I *immediately* started swinging the club more left.
You don’t need to go to the extreme with flattening clubs, but from my experience lie boards and clubfitters tend to give a band-aid solution and hide behind it being ‘dynamic fitting’ and usually what happens is the golfer first adjusts to the club design and then ‘over-adjusts’ and just ruins their swing even more.
We should also remember that over the years standard lie angles by OEM’s have become more upright. Pretty much every OEM tries to make their standard specs and components of the club for the hacker. The more upright lie angles make slicing a bit harder to do. The issue I see is that if you’re a serious golfer willing to work on their swing, those lie angles may be way too upright for you to begin with.
3JACK
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-79HfkzyR5o[/media]
I tried 6* flat of about standard. Although everybody’s ‘standards’ are different these days. So here’s my typical lie angles:
2-iron: 52* lie angle
3-iron: 53* lie angle
4-iron: 54* lie angle
5-iorn: 55* lie angle
6-iron: 56* lie angle
7-iron: 57* lie angle
8-iron: 58* lie angle
9-iron: 59* lie angle
PW: 59* lie angle
SW: 59* lie angle
LW: 59* lie angle
The 6* flat was suggested to me. I have 7 different sets of vintage, forged blades that I get cheap off of eBay. A few of the sets are some of the best I’ve ever hit. And the forgings back then are very soft, so they are easy t o bend. For instance, we wound up bending my Hogan Apex PC 3-iron 9* without an issue. They also have long necks on them, making them easier to bend as well.
Bending them 6* flat of standard was more or less something done to help with my swing. But for the most part, I was having no problems making square contact consistently. In fact, I recently went 72 holes of golf and only mis-hitting 1 shot in that span…a downhill lie with a 4-iron (caught it fat).
But, my backswing eventually started to sour and I didn’t like my posture at address. I still wanted a flat downswing and thus the swing in the video above. With that swing in the above video, the irons are now about 1-2* too flat. Still, that’s lie angles about 4-5* flat from standard and at 6’4” tall.
Kevin Shields is shorter in height than me, but swings on the more upright TSP, so in my mind he should be closer to standard.
But I think anything more than 1* upright from standard is really ruining your chances to swing the club consistently well with the possible OTT move coming into play and I think upright clubs take away the golfer’s ability to use ground forces to power their pivot.
Plus, I found that going to flatter clubs I *immediately* started swinging the club more left.
You don’t need to go to the extreme with flattening clubs, but from my experience lie boards and clubfitters tend to give a band-aid solution and hide behind it being ‘dynamic fitting’ and usually what happens is the golfer first adjusts to the club design and then ‘over-adjusts’ and just ruins their swing even more.
We should also remember that over the years standard lie angles by OEM’s have become more upright. Pretty much every OEM tries to make their standard specs and components of the club for the hacker. The more upright lie angles make slicing a bit harder to do. The issue I see is that if you’re a serious golfer willing to work on their swing, those lie angles may be way too upright for you to begin with.
3JACK
Interesting stuff...I hit maybe one pure shot with my irons every couple rounds if I'm lucky. I have to do a Crazy OTT to do it too. Feels Like I have to do a million things right to hit the center of the clubface. Craziness.
I am going to see a club fitter this Saturday and I ain't walking out of there with 2* upright clubs I can tell you that.
Thx for all the insight 3Jack!
3JACK[/QUOTE]
I was bent back to standard but still hitting it on the toe. The problem is in the swing unfortunately. I have hit about 500 balls in the last 2 days and my hands are beat to crap from hitting the toe. Very frustrating and I have no desire to even play golf till I can find the sweetspot on the range. So far I have not been able to.
Richie3Jack
New
Yes, you're not going to magically bend the clubs and not hit it off the toe. But by getting your clubs upright, you just further ingrain whatever is going on in your swing. If you go to a good teacher and you work on your swing properly, you now have a better chance of getting it corrected because the downswing plane will not be as upright and you won't be fighting those upright lie angles as you make corrections.
Believe me, I have been there and back and could write a book, movie and collector's edition DVD with director's cut about it.
3JACK
Believe me, I have been there and back and could write a book, movie and collector's edition DVD with director's cut about it.
3JACK
mjstrong
New
A side note, don't assume that you are necessarily the same lie angle measurement throughout the set. I've fit (or retro-fit) many players for flatter lie angles in the shorter clubs and more upright in the longer, or other variations.
It's too convenient to assume that if you should play your 6 iron at 1 degree flat, your entire set should be the same. It's possible (even probable), but not guaranteed...
It's too convenient to assume that if you should play your 6 iron at 1 degree flat, your entire set should be the same. It's possible (even probable), but not guaranteed...
softconsult
New
"I was bent back to standard but still hitting it on the toe. The problem is in the swing unfortunately. I have hit about 500 balls in the last 2 days and my hands are beat to crap from hitting the toe. Very frustrating and I have no desire to even play golf till I can find the sweetspot on the range. So far I have not been able to."
No diagnosis from me. Just simple observation. To me, hitting 500 balls hoping to hit the sweetspot makes zero sense. It's just in-graining whatever swing flaw is causing the problem. I would stop hitting balls, and find an instructor, preferably with a camera, who can show you what you are doing and give you something to work on
that will, hopefully, solve your problem.
No diagnosis from me. Just simple observation. To me, hitting 500 balls hoping to hit the sweetspot makes zero sense. It's just in-graining whatever swing flaw is causing the problem. I would stop hitting balls, and find an instructor, preferably with a camera, who can show you what you are doing and give you something to work on
that will, hopefully, solve your problem.
Richie3Jack
New
I agree with mjstrong and softconsult here. I've had struggles where I spend maybe 3-4 hours on the range straight, but I may hit about 100 balls tops. The rest of the time is looking at film of my swing and trying to figure out what's going wrong and what to do to correct it. I also agree that they don't always have to be uniform lie angles. Mine are and I do quite alright with them, but I plan on doing the marker line test with each club once I get my swing to where I feel comfortable with getting an accurate reading on the test.
3JACK
3JACK
Thx Soft...I did get some very helpful feedback from a fellow forum member ( Stew Bannatyne). He did the fitting and gave me a couple setup tidbits. I move a tad closer to the ball and choked up a bit on the irons. The real break through came yesterday when I did the "tee in front of ball" drill. Then I started to hit the pure shots I have been missing for so long. I think my biggest problem is that when I set up I get "reaching" for the ball and my weight gets way up on the toes so that when I get to my down swing I need to re-seek my balance point and thus hit it on the toe. Just a theory but it can't be good to have my weight on my toes at setup.
Also a shout to Stew for giving me a helping hand and taking time out of his weekend. Stew is a very accomplished player and a class act. Gotta love this site! thx Brian et al.
Also a shout to Stew for giving me a helping hand and taking time out of his weekend. Stew is a very accomplished player and a class act. Gotta love this site! thx Brian et al.
softconsult
New
Glad to hear it. There is an old technique where you simply curl your toes up at address.
Helps get your weight centered between heel and ball of foot.
Helps get your weight centered between heel and ball of foot.
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