Brian Manzella
Administrator
I still maintain that 6° flat is a band-aid for an overly in-to-out swing.
What are you TrackMan numbers, Rich?
What are you TrackMan numbers, Rich?
Toe hits and Lie Angles
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Richie3Jack
New
I went about 6 weeks ago and plan on going in 2-3 weeks for another Trackman.
Anyway. With the irons it looks like this:
0* face
-3 to -4* HSP
-2 to -1* Path
I then saw some small alignment problems and got it zeroed out.
With the driver, it was really good that day, zeroes across the board (AoA, Path, Face and HSP)
It certainly can be a band aid for overly inside-to-out swings.
I figure I'll probably wind up more like 3* to 4* flat in the end. This was just a starting point. But it does go to show that one can play well despite being 6'4" tall and with very flat clubs.
My feeling is I'd just be leery of people going to upright lie angles because if they are swing well with a zeroed out path, regardless of their VSP, *most* of the time lie angles that are upright are way too upright. Then you fight it and usually when you try to fight it, you give in.
Hell, the 1972 Hogan Apex standard specs had the lie angles at 59.5* for the 5-iron and at a 37.5". The new Titleist MB's 5-iron standard specs is 62* and 38.0" long (Titleist.com - Products: Golf Clubs: MB Iron). That's effectively a difference of 3*.
The OEM's have made clubs more and more for the hacker and in particular, to help stop the slice. But if you have a pretty good golf swing...regardless if you swing on the TSP or the elbow plane on the downswing, those upright lie angles I feel are counterproductive.
3JACK
Richie3Jack
New
Sidebar: Someone or something has overtaken my mind, body and soul and I am now pounding the sweetspot.
Carry on.
Awesome!
3JACK
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I completely agree with that.
I would LOVE TO get a set of clubs with a 38" 3-iron. I may try it next set.
I agree with Richie about OEMs "building clubs for hackers."
In addition, they build clubs to SELL them, which is why they keep making clubs longer and longer and longer. The average driver length on the US PGA tour is 44.5", and yet the average driver length in a golf store today is closer to 46". They hope that you'll catch it flush once, see it go a long way, and pay $299 to $399 for a driver that isn't that much different from last year's model.
And then they do the same thing in irons.
I'm not quite at Brian's 38" 3 iron, but mine is only 38.75", as I play to the now very old standard of a 37.75" 5 iron.
In addition, they build clubs to SELL them, which is why they keep making clubs longer and longer and longer. The average driver length on the US PGA tour is 44.5", and yet the average driver length in a golf store today is closer to 46". They hope that you'll catch it flush once, see it go a long way, and pay $299 to $399 for a driver that isn't that much different from last year's model.
And then they do the same thing in irons.
I'm not quite at Brian's 38" 3 iron, but mine is only 38.75", as I play to the now very old standard of a 37.75" 5 iron.
Another question...so now that I am hitting sweetspot versus the toe ( after going from 2 degrees upright to standard) does lie angle affect where we hit the ball on the face??? My clubfitter buddy says I am nuts and that it would have no affect. He says I just am standing closer to the ball etc etc...
Frans@France
New
Like I said in some other thread : Changing the Lie will change the swingweight. It will also change playing length! So yes is could change you feeling for the sweetspot.
Frans@France
New
Have a look at the average length of people change during that same time. You will be suprised to find that that will support both clublength changes and lie changes.
softconsult
New
"Have a look at the average length of people change during that same time. You will be suprised to find that that will support both clublength changes and lie changes."
That statement is incorrect. Humans don't change that fast.
Club length is marketing strategy in order to claim more shot length.
Here's a snippet.
"There's a frequently-encountered assumption that the average height of humans has grown steadily taller as the centuries have progressed. However, studies have shown that the average height of a population is related to general health and economic well-being, which is affected by such factors as climate changes, the growth of cities, war and population cycles. Thus, average height fluctuated throughout history.
And it turns out medieval men weren't a whole lot shorter, on average, than men of the new millennium."
Here's a link. How much has the average height of humans increased over the last 1,000 years?
That statement is incorrect. Humans don't change that fast.
Club length is marketing strategy in order to claim more shot length.
Here's a snippet.
"There's a frequently-encountered assumption that the average height of humans has grown steadily taller as the centuries have progressed. However, studies have shown that the average height of a population is related to general health and economic well-being, which is affected by such factors as climate changes, the growth of cities, war and population cycles. Thus, average height fluctuated throughout history.
And it turns out medieval men weren't a whole lot shorter, on average, than men of the new millennium."
Here's a link. How much has the average height of humans increased over the last 1,000 years?
Richie3Jack
New
I think undoubtedly the average athlete is far bigger today.
But taller?
Not so sure about that.
And I don't think the average human non-NCAA or non-pro athlete is taller at all.
3JACK
But taller?
Not so sure about that.
And I don't think the average human non-NCAA or non-pro athlete is taller at all.
3JACK
Frans@France
New
20 year man Spain : 1970 171 cm
20 year man Spain : 2000 176 cm
almost 2 inch!
USA 1960-2002 1 inch (NCHS Pressroom - 2004 News Release - Americans Slightly Taller and Much Heavier)
So who not change the length of the iron 5 by 0.5 inch as stated in the original post?
softconsult
New
Looks like a good source of information. So lets say we accept it.
That doesn't mean that club manufacturers consult academic studies when
deciding on their club standards. It also doesn't mean that all the growth
was in the legs. We aren't necessarily 1 inch higher off the ground at the
hand height measurement.
It's hard to ignore the fact that club manufacturers are in business to sell clubs.
Distance sells. Long club length is peddled as longer shots. Same as making
lofts stronger. Marketing.
Ping is still at 37.75 5 iron. Maybe they know something.
Anyway, this is feeling like trivial pursuit so I end my comments.
That doesn't mean that club manufacturers consult academic studies when
deciding on their club standards. It also doesn't mean that all the growth
was in the legs. We aren't necessarily 1 inch higher off the ground at the
hand height measurement.
It's hard to ignore the fact that club manufacturers are in business to sell clubs.
Distance sells. Long club length is peddled as longer shots. Same as making
lofts stronger. Marketing.
Ping is still at 37.75 5 iron. Maybe they know something.
Anyway, this is feeling like trivial pursuit so I end my comments.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
meh...i've been through all types of swings and guess what? I always hover between 1*-2* flat and a lot of times it depends on the club length.
duckjr78
New
Do all clubs in the set need to be the "same" lie angle, or can you use different lie angles throughout the set to help adjust the dplane? I know Vijay does something like this where his short irons are a degree flat or so, his mid irons are standard, and his long irons are a touch upright.
Anyone have any experience with this.
Anyone have any experience with this.
mjstrong
New
I state this on page 2. I always do fittings with a Pw, 7i, and 4i (for those who will even be hitting a 4 iron).
duckjr78
New
Thanks, I missed that post somehow. Now to find a clubfitter who knows what he or she is doing.
mjstrong
New
You could always just ask them to include a short, mid, and long iron in the fitting process. It's not unreasonable to ask. Once they've fit you for all the other variables, to go back and check two other iron categories should be quick and painless.
duckjr78
New
I can't seem to find a clubfitter in my area (FL panhandle) that I trust. The only people around here are at the Edwin Watts store, and I don't feel comfortable going to them.
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