Brian Manzella
Administrator
Go ahead...
Quick response promise.
Quick response promise.
Tongzilla....ask your "Flying Wedge Question" here
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tongzilla
New
The one about the left arm flying wedge being on plane between end of startup swivel and before release swivel?
From photographic evidence, this is clearly not the case. But according to the definitions in TGM, it should be.
So the "question" is really about how to reconcile this apparent inconsistency in TGM.
By the way guys...this discussion really has NOTHING to do with getting you play better golf, or mash the ball more...just brain cell burning for TGM junkies!
From photographic evidence, this is clearly not the case. But according to the definitions in TGM, it should be.
So the "question" is really about how to reconcile this apparent inconsistency in TGM.
By the way guys...this discussion really has NOTHING to do with getting you play better golf, or mash the ball more...just brain cell burning for TGM junkies!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
At the "top," the LEFT ARM is not on plane (let's say the Turned Shoulder Plane).
The reason is that the left arm DOES NOT DEFINE the Turned Shoulder Plane.
?
The reason is that the left arm DOES NOT DEFINE the Turned Shoulder Plane.
?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
10-13-D#2
Not on plane.
Not on plane.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
That's my point ed.
tongzilla
New
Yes, of course Brian...and I agree with you.
But, this is what I'm trying to say. By 'joining the dots' and using the various definitions in the book, the whole the of Left Arm Flying Wedge should be, in facing directly toward the plane.
I will try to explain. Please bear with me here.
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What is a Swivel?
A Swivel is a rotation of the Left Wrist from a Turned position to a Vertical position (Release Swivel) or from a Vertical position to a Turned position (Startup Swivel).
4-C-2: “When TURNED…the left palm faces directly toward that Plane."
So "that Plane" is whatever your selected Clubshaft Plane is, and it can be the Turned Shoulder Plane.
4-D-0:
"Normally, only Swingers with their Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A) “Swivel” –- that is, actually rotate the Left Wrist –- through Release into its Vertical Position for Impact." [bold by tongzilla]
10-18-A:
Standard Wrist Action
"With this procedure with Wrist is Turned and Cocked (FCT) during the Backstroke which requires that it be Rolled and Uncocked during the Release. Only where this procedure is used, do the Hands “Swivel” into Hinge Action Position." [bold by tongzilla]
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According to the above, the whole of the Left Arm Flying Wedge should be facing directly toward the Plane between the end of Startup Swivel and just before the Release Swivel.
But as I said, the Left Arm Flying Wedge is clearly not(always) On Plane during this time.
And Brian has given a reason why that is the case -- it is the Right Shoulder, not the Left Arm that defines the Turned Shoulder Plane.
So my question is, where is the flaw in my argument?
What does facing directly mean in
"...should be facing directly toward the Plane between the end of Startup Swivel and just before the Release Swivel."
Vaako
EDIT: Sorry, botched the posting. Ment to say "Why did Homer say Palm - not LFW - and what does facing directly mean in".
Implication being he didn't necessarily use the word in the same way - or, in the same context - as, you do. I don't know TGM well enough to say it is so, though.
"...should be facing directly toward the Plane between the end of Startup Swivel and just before the Release Swivel."
Vaako
EDIT: Sorry, botched the posting. Ment to say "Why did Homer say Palm - not LFW - and what does facing directly mean in".
Implication being he didn't necessarily use the word in the same way - or, in the same context - as, you do. I don't know TGM well enough to say it is so, though.
tongzilla
New
If I put the whole of my Left Arm Flying Wedge on the table -- which includes the Hinge Pin located in my Left Shoulder -- then I have Turned (as you say, "palm down") the whole of my Left Arm Flying Wedge on to a Horizontal Plane (Left Arm Flying Wedge is always in the Plane of Left Wrist Cock).
Brian Manzella
Administrator
A KEY word in Homer's writtings is: "toward."
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
It makes perfect sense to me.
Homer says it should face directly toward (note he italicized toward) the selected plane.
He didn't say it was "ON PLANE"
If I am standing straight up and looking directly toward the Leaning Tower of Pisa, I am not on the same plane as it is, but I am looking DIRECTLY TOWARD IT. And, if I turn around and face the other direction I am facing directly away from it.
Hope this helps.
tongzilla
New
Thanks for the reply Tom.
Lets read the whole thing:
4-C-2 TURNED
The Wrist is TURNED when the hand is rotated to the right. When TURNED, the right palm faces directly away form the selected Plane (7-5) and/or the left palm faces directly toward that Plane. Whether the Wrist is TURNING or ROLLING, it is always in a TURNED condition at any point between VERTICAL and TURNED.
So what you are saying is that the Wrist is always in a Turned condition between Vertical and Turned. I agree. But it's still not TURNED.
To me, directly means directly. Not a little facing the plane...but directly facing the plane. So I think there's a difference between looking toward the Leaning Tower of Pisa like you've described (Turned CONDITION), and looking directly toward it (TURNED).
quote:Originally posted by tongzilla
No probs with disagreeing rwh!
The Left Arm Flying Wedge includes the Hinge Pin which is located in the Left Shoulder. Thus, the Left Arm Flying Wedge consists of the entire Left Arm. Really!
I agree. If the Left Wrist is cocked and turned and the Shaft is moved up in the plane of the Left Arm, how could it not facing or towards the Plane?
rwh
New
tongzilla,
Fundamentally, the Right Shoulder Joint turns back to the plane and arrives on-plane at the Top while, at the same time, the Left Shoulder joint arrives at a position that is considerably above and off the plane. Therefore, if we connect the dots between the left shoulder joint and the left wrist, the left shoulder joint dot is above and off plane, which means that the left arm cannot be entirely on the plane.
Fundamentally, the Right Shoulder Joint turns back to the plane and arrives on-plane at the Top while, at the same time, the Left Shoulder joint arrives at a position that is considerably above and off the plane. Therefore, if we connect the dots between the left shoulder joint and the left wrist, the left shoulder joint dot is above and off plane, which means that the left arm cannot be entirely on the plane.
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
4-C-2 TURNED
The Wrist is TURNED when the hand is rotated to the right. When TURNED, the right palm faces directly away form the selected Plane (7-5) and/or the left palm faces directly toward that Plane. Whether the Wrist is TURNING or ROLLING, it is always in a TURNED condition at any point between VERTICAL and TURNED.
So what you are saying is that the Wrist is always in a Turned condition between Vertical and Turned. I agree. But it's still not TURNED.
To me, directly means directly. Not a little facing the plane...but directly facing the plane. So I think there's a difference between looking toward the Leaning Tower of Pisa like you've described (Turned CONDITION), and looking directly toward it (TURNED).
No Leo, I didn't say anything about turned "condition" I said when it IS turned you are facing directly toward the tower. You aren't facing to the side and looking out of the corner of your eyes. I'll use Mr. Finney's. If you are standing outside of your house and
"facing directly toward" your roof...
Homer says "faces directly toward".Faces, verb-To front on. Directly, adverb-In a direct line or manner; straight. Toward, preposition-In the direction of.
So, from what I gather you think Homer is trying to say that "faces directly toward the selected plane" means on plane. Is this your contention or am I misunderstanding?
Because, I don't take it that way. If Homer meant on plane he would have said that.
Let me know what you think.
The Wrist is TURNED when the hand is rotated to the right. When TURNED, the right palm faces directly away form the selected Plane (7-5) and/or the left palm faces directly toward that Plane. Whether the Wrist is TURNING or ROLLING, it is always in a TURNED condition at any point between VERTICAL and TURNED.
So what you are saying is that the Wrist is always in a Turned condition between Vertical and Turned. I agree. But it's still not TURNED.
To me, directly means directly. Not a little facing the plane...but directly facing the plane. So I think there's a difference between looking toward the Leaning Tower of Pisa like you've described (Turned CONDITION), and looking directly toward it (TURNED).
No Leo, I didn't say anything about turned "condition" I said when it IS turned you are facing directly toward the tower. You aren't facing to the side and looking out of the corner of your eyes. I'll use Mr. Finney's. If you are standing outside of your house and
"facing directly toward" your roof...
Homer says "faces directly toward".Faces, verb-To front on. Directly, adverb-In a direct line or manner; straight. Toward, preposition-In the direction of.
So, from what I gather you think Homer is trying to say that "faces directly toward the selected plane" means on plane. Is this your contention or am I misunderstanding?
Because, I don't take it that way. If Homer meant on plane he would have said that.
Let me know what you think.
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