Tongzilla....ask your "Flying Wedge Question" here

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

So, from what I gather you think Homer is trying to say that "faces directly toward the selected plane" means on plane. Is this your contention or am I misunderstanding?

Because, I don't take it that way. If Homer meant on plane he would have said that.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks again Tom for your patience

(I think your analogy with the Leaning Tower of Pisa and Roofs makes things a little complicated. So lets stick to G.O.L.F. if you don't mind.)

I interpret "left palm faces directly toward that Plane" as the left palm being parallel to that Plane, which may or may not be ON that Plane.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

I don't think they are that complicated. But, O.K. Homer was writing a text book. If he meant parallel he would have said parallel, right?[?]

 

[Tom Bartlett]

By the way...I thought the whole point of THIS forum was to explain things in "ordinary terms".[)]

 

[tongzilla]

Fair enough Tom [|)]

 

[Bono]

Funny how I received no reply....on Lynn's forum....

Now......can I get a witness?

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by Bono

Funny how I received no reply....on Lynn's forum....

Now......can I get a witness?

Is this message for me?

 

[Bono]

No sir....I meant from others...my bad.

And trust me, I am only being sarcastic.

[}]

 

[tobell]

Watching John Daley on The Golf Channel yesterday I couldn't help but notice his left hand grip is turned or very strong. He seems to have his flying wedges almost set at address. Does this alow him to be a swinger with no swivel?

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by tobell

Watching John Daley on The Golf Channel yesterday I couldn't help but notice his left hand grip is turned or very strong. He seems to have his flying wedges almost set at address. Does this alow him to be a swinger with no swivel?

Pretty much. See 10-2-D. The grip types are very much based on how the hands are in relation to the plane. With the Turned left hand no start up swivel needed because the hand is already facing the plane. Also, and may be even more critical, you must "paddle wheel" meaning keep the hand turned longer through the ball otherwise hello left shots. Check out Trevino's sequence . . .

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by rundmc

Also, and may be even more critical, you must "paddle wheel" meaning keep the hand turned longer through the ball otherwise hello left shots. Check out Trevino's sequence . . .

I thought paddlewheel motion here refers to the left wrist being vertical to one of the basic planes...which is horizontal here...?

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

quote:Originally posted by rundmc

Also, and may be even more critical, you must "paddle wheel" meaning keep the hand turned longer through the ball otherwise hello left shots. Check out Trevino's sequence . . .

I thought paddlewheel motion here refers to the left wrist being vertical to one of the basic planes...which is horizontal here...?

You can Paddlewheel with both hands . . . per 10-2-D

The palm of the Right Hand moves toward Impact exactly like a paddle-wheel rotating On-Plane – no separate Rolling Motion until after Impact. See 10-10-C.

Here's 10-10-C too

10-10-C ANGLED HINGE ACTION This simultaneous “Closing and Layback” procedure holds the Flat Left Wrist vertical to the Inclined Plane (2-D, 2-G). This is identical to the Paddle-Wheel motion of the straightening Right Arm but is a superior procedure (1-F). It greatly simplifies Hitting (10-19-A).

I guess since the Left Wrist is turned is why Mr. K focused on the Paddlewheel of the Right Hand since this grip type is compatible with Cut Shot procedures. Any roll prior to impact is LEFT OF LEFT.

 

[tobell]

Are the following all 10-2-D guys:

Trevino
Daly
Couples
Duval

I find 10-2-D can be used to max-out accumulator #2 via float loading on the downstroke when swinging thus creating maximum clubhead speed. It also helps minimize or even eliminate the need to swivel--a good thing. Setting the flying wedges seems to also be facilitated using 10-2-D. Do TGMers feel that it is inferior to Strong single action (10-2-B) based soley upon imperative #1?

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by tobell

Are the following all 10-2-D guys:

Trevino
Daly
Couples
Duval

I find 10-2-D can be used to max-out accumulator #2 via float loading on the downstroke when swinging thus creating maximum clubhead speed. It also helps minimize or even eliminate the need to swivel--a good thing. Setting the flying wedges seems to also be facilitated using 10-2-D. Do TGMers feel that it is inferior to Strong single action (10-2-B) based soley upon imperative #1?

I agree with your analysis on the swivel thing. Just one less variable.

Here's what Mr. K had to say per 7-1:

Grip types other than the Strong Single Action (10-2-B) either destroy the Wedges or produce inferior deviations. Also study 3-F-6.

I think the true problem Mr. K had with this grip was the loss of a visual check point per 4-D-1 since the Left Hand is Turned:

“Flat Left Wrist” and “Grip” refer to the Strong Single Action Grip Type 10-2-B. This is highly dependable visual check for compliance with the Law of The Flail (2-K). Carefully study 3-F-7.

The release motions for 10-2-D are different because with 10-2-D the Clubface is thrown at the ball.

Check this post out by Lynn Blake . . .

Put a 10-2-D Grip -- Left Wrist Turned On Plane -- on a hammer whose head faces to the left. Then, drive a nail into a wall on your left. That is 'Throwing the Clubface at the Ball'. And it's a good thing. In fact, if you've got a 10-2-D Grip, it's the only thing! Through Impact, there is only Uncocking (Wrist Motion) and zero Roll (Hand Motion).

The quote from 4-D-0 (Release Motions) assumes the 10-2-B Grip (Left Wrist Vertical to the ground). Unlike the Release Motion required by the 10-2-D Grip (Wrist Motion only), the On Plane Uncocking of the Left Wrist (Wrist Motion) must be followed by the Roll of the #3 Accumulator Angle (Hand Motion). This Sequenced Release simultaneously returns the Left Wrist to Vertical and Squares the Clubface.

To alternatively square the Clubface by 'throwing' the Club past a Bending Left Wrist -- a Horizontal Wrist Motion -- is as disastrous as it is common. This is a different 'throw' -- ThrowAWAY! -- and it is far different than the Swinger's Release Wrist Throw (a Perpendicular Wrist Motion).

Interesting that all the guys you referenced above even Daly now play a Cut.

 

[tobell]

Rundmc,

Thanks for the great post. I agree with Lynn's assessment regarding the dangers of throwaway when employing 10-2-D, his point about the hammer is also very instructive.

First, lets look at his hammer drill and imagine how difficult it would be to precisely strike that nail employing anything but 10-2-D. We’re talking finish nail not 16 penny. If I held the hammer with 10-2-B I'd probably bend the nail or worse yet miss it altogether. My thought is 10-2-D seems to be the grip providing the most precision for the task of either striking the nail or the golf ball.

Next is throwaway. I'm talking swinging here, not hitting. Here's the rub, if one exerts too much pp#2 --which is very easy to do-- then throwaway is inevitable and all is lost. The old tip "hold it in the last three fingers of your left hand" is disastrous here. What we're looking for is maximum acc#2 achieved by cranking up the gyro always staying ahead of the club and driving that load while maintaining a passive pp#3 until cf takes it into a violent snap release. Boom, all those guys can really kill it--save Trevino who has a special magic all his own outside of this description.

Homer warns us that this is an "essentially perilous deviation." Being a child of the 70's I recall a little ditty something like; Momma always told me not to look into the eyes of the sun, but mamma that’s where the fun is.

 

[tongzilla]

The 10-2-D Grip is actually helpful for Throwaway prevention and was recommended by Homer in the 3rd Edition. Why has it been removed? I don't know, but its inferiorty as mentioned above probably played a part.

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

The 10-2-D Grip is actually helpful for Throwaway prevention and was recommended by Homer in the 3rd Edition. Why has it been removed? I don't know, but its inferiorty as mentioned above probably played a part.

Have you ever tried placing a round grip on your putter and using the 10-2-D grip? I call it the "Reverse Claw" and, as you said, no throwaway!

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by tobell

Rundmc,

My thought is 10-2-D seems to be the grip providing the most precision for the task of either striking the nail or the golf ball.

Next is throwaway. I'm talking swinging here, not hitting. Here's the rub, if one exerts too much pp#2 --which is very easy to do-- then throwaway is inevitable and all is lost. The old tip "hold it in the last three fingers of your left hand" is disastrous here. What we're looking for is maximum acc#2 achieved by cranking up the gyro always staying ahead of the club and driving that load while maintaining a passive pp#3 until cf takes it into a violent snap release. Boom, all those guys can really kill it--save Trevino who has a special magic all his own outside of this description.

The first statement is in my opinion very true. To me you have eliminated variables related to all the swiveling. But if you DO swivel look out!

Can you expand on your second point some . . . I like where you are heading!

Thanks!

R

 

[tobell]

Rundmc,

The key is the correct placement of the last three fingers of the left hand (right handed swinger). If you simply grasp the club with these three fingers you are certain to over activate pp#2, and throwaway from the top. If you borrow the Hogan image (not his virtical left wrist however) of hinging the grip under the heel pad of your left hand and balance the club using only the middle finger to hook the shaft with the last two fingers off the club, the weight of the club will tug your left wrist to level and since it's 10-2-D turned. Gently wrap the last two fingers of the left hand while not disrupting the balance of the club. Take it back as you wish--low and slow (Daly) RFT (Couples). When you start your downstroke crank that baby (acc#2) as acute as possible as you swing toward the plance line...the more aggressive the better, then an automatic snap release will occur when cf takes over.....by the way doesn't cf always throw the club anyway?

 

[tobell]

Plane shifts, pocket protectors and perils.

So how do Daly, Couples and Duval cope with their “essentially perilous deviation”?

The story goes something like this; Homer was tee-side working on some notes. Along strolls Daly and caddy, Marlboro dangling from sunburned lips, beer in the right hand, Boston-cream in the left. Homer politely offers up his assistance, pulling a slide-rule from his pocket-protector he launches into a lecture complete with tangents cosigns acceleration rates angular force and the like. Half listening Daly quickly grows restless, exchanges the beer and donut for his driver then “grips it and rips it”. Homer’s reaction to Daly's blast was to pull a note-pad from his pocket protector and begin to scribble away in fury. Daly turned to Homer and said, “You want perilous try 12-2-0 man, now that’s what I call peril”.

One man’s peril is another man’s pearl.

Throwaway is avoided by Daly, Couples and Duval by pivot, pivot and pivot. A little plane shift doesn’t hurt either.

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by tobell

Rundmc,

The key is the correct placement of the last three fingers of the left hand (right handed swinger). If you simply grasp the club with these three fingers you are certain to over activate pp#2, and throwaway from the top. If you borrow the Hogan image (not his virtical left wrist however) of hinging the grip under the heel pad of your left hand and balance the club using only the middle finger to hook the shaft with the last two fingers off the club, the weight of the club will tug your left wrist to level and since it's 10-2-D turned. Gently wrap the last two fingers of the left hand while not disrupting the balance of the club. Take it back as you wish--low and slow (Daly) RFT (Couples). When you start your downstroke crank that baby (acc#2) as acute as possible as you swing toward the plance line...the more aggressive the better, then an automatic snap release will occur when cf takes over.....by the way doesn't cf always throw the club anyway?

Tobell,

Thanks for the post! Little foggy . . .

On the placement of the fingers are you saying have the most pressure with the Left Hand fingers Spiderman style? Index and ring fingers?

I got lost . . .

Thanks!

R