Tongzilla's proceedure

[Steve Khatib]

After speaking with Tongzilla today 3 very interesting points of discussion were raised:

There is no real such thing as Tripod Centre Head as it moves by momentum?

Standard foot action may not provide any more distance or accuracy for some players and others will benefit enormously from allowing the left heel to be pulled off by the pivot, not lifted as meerly lifting the heel accomplishes nothing?

Shouldern turn takeaway will always be below plane unless extensor action is applied( not that there is anything wrong with being below plane if you can shift correctly)?

What are youre thoughts?
Tongzilla seems to be a mid west of America(near Mizuno Joe) TGM version : he is somwhere between east coast and west coast ideas.

His model however is Bobby Schaeffer- maximum participation pattern.

 

[MizunoJoe]

"Shouldern turn takeaway will always be below plane unless extensor action is applied"

That's just not true. The shoulders can throw the arms as steep as you want. Nicklaus in his prime!

 

[BigBadDonkey]

I don't think Nicklaus or Woods start their takeaway with their shoulders, like alot of people, even if they say they do. They point their shoulder turn takeaway with their hands.
e.g there is no drag back... they'd move their heads otherwise, which they don't. (or hardly)
Does this sound ridiculous?.. maybe it's an extremely hard skill.

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

"Shouldern turn takeaway will always be below plane unless extensor action is applied"

That's just not true. The shoulders can throw the arms as steep as you want. Nicklaus in his prime!

Yes. Also, Colin Montgomery.

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by BigBadDonkey

I don't think Nicklaus or Woods start their takeaway with their shoulders, like alot of people, even if they say they do. They point their shoulder turn takeaway with their hands.
e.g there is no drag back... they'd move their heads otherwise, which they don't. (or hardly)
Does this sound ridiculous?.. maybe it's an extremely hard skill.

I can heave my arms back and up with my shoulders without moving my head. It doesn't take much, if any, skill. This old underplane, head moving stuff is being sold by some AIs like Chuck Evans, who prefer right forearm takeaway.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by FOUR BARRELS AUSTRALIAN

After speaking with Tongzilla today 3 very interesting points of discussion were raised:

There is no real such thing as Tripod Centre Head as it moves by momentum?

Standard foot action may not provide any more distance or accuracy for some players and others will benefit enormously from allowing the left heel to be pulled off by the pivot, not lifted as meerly lifting the heel accomplishes nothing?

Shouldern turn takeaway will always be below plane unless extensor action is applied( not that there is anything wrong with being below plane if you can shift correctly)?

What are youre thoughts?
Tongzilla seems to be a mid west of America(near Mizuno Joe) TGM version : he is somwhere between east coast and west coast ideas.

His model however is Bobby Schaeffer- maximum participation pattern.

It was a pleasure speaking to you Steve. The crappy connection on Kenny's mobile was really annoying!

To clarify:

The Head Pivot Center is recommended but not at all mandatory.

The act of trying to keep a Stationary Head by keeping the head stationary (sounds weired, huh?) is almost always not the optimum procedure.

Bobbing (3-7-F-C) or Swaying (3-7-F-C) is usually indicative of faulty execution in other areas of the Stroke. By fixing these other areas, you will significantly reduce movement of the Head also.

The Tripod concept is a model. We are humans, but it's very helpful to have a model in mind.



The Shoulder Turn Takeaway produces curved Plane Shifts by both the Hands and Clubhead. If your Club isn't underplane during Start Up, then you're not using the true Shoulder Turn Takeaway, not matter what you feel you're doing. Whether you have Extensor Action or not (of course, you should always have Extensor Action!), the Right Forearm is responsible for Tracing the Straight Plane Line (The Third Imperative).

There is a difference between being 'below Plane' and 'shifting to a shallower Plane'. One former produces a bent Plane Line, the latter doesn't.

I do not support the separation and identification between 'East Coast TGM' and 'West Coast TGM'. I embrace all ideas that work and produce results.

Bobby Schaeffer has one of my all time favourite Swinging Patterns, although I personally do not use a Maximum Pivot Participation Pattern.

 

[billmckinneygolf]

Bobby believes that even "lifting" the feet can contribute to power and freedom.
It may not be for everyone, but it is for some. Maybe the incubation process would
make it for Everyone. Think of all the back ache it would save golfers.

 

[Steve Khatib]

Bill, youre right I teach my Grandpa golfers as Ben calls them this x classifaction variation.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I think all this west coast/east coast stuff is just BS.

Either you teach that imperatives dictate the pattern or the pattern dictates the imperatives.

I teach the former.

 

[Steve Khatib]

Brian, I disagree however I dont mean this is any negative or contoversial way. when I say East Coast I generally mean RFT, Random or Sweep patterns lots of early assembly and Geometry as a major focus. When I say West Coast I generally mean STT, Float loading, Top assembly, more pivot paticipation standard foot action snap or random releases and Physics as a major focus.

Neither are wrong or unlawful or awful, simply if you surveyed all of the AI'S in lets say west of say Mizuno Joe Oklahoma you would get these patterns as the main preferences, and if you surveyed the East states you would see their pattern as preferred.

I know 6BMike wont like this post, but I am not being nasty just explaining patterns taught based on influencing teachers in TGM's early days.

 

[tongzilla]

Physics of the Golf Stroke is very important, but, ultimately, Geometry always takes precedence over Physics. That's what the Hand Controlled Pivot of The Golfing Machine is about (incubate last paragraph in 5-0). It has nothing to do with Component Variations such as Power Package Loading Action (10-22).

 

[billmckinneygolf]

Geometry is certainly important, but from my experience, it's a fine line between position golf and alignment golf. Golf is tough so most people aren't that great which makes it easy to criticize the methods of their gurus. But I have a lot of friends who can flat out play, and they are all interested in motion much more than positions. But their alignments are great, too.
"See and Feel the Inside move the (really well-educated) Outside" would be my motto.
And Steve, I took the old man swing out today and was hitting lots of 300 yarders right down the middle at Dove Canyon. And it just felt sooo easy.

 

[Steve Khatib]

Tong, you are incorrect here, West coasters shall we say can still teach a hand controlled pivot but also emphasise the physics so long as educated hands are monitored. The 10-22 component variations are what the preferences of either west or east coast TGM will use eg. East Coast random sweep RFT and West Coaster STT top assembly random or snap.

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by billmckinneygolf

they are all interested in motion much more than positions

"See and Feel the Inside move the (really well-educated) Outside" would be my motto.

Right on the money, bill - those who do it best make a motion and leave the positions to photographers.

Great post and motto! [8D]

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by FOUR BARRELS AUSTRALIAN

Tong, you are incorrect here, West coasters shall we say can still teach a hand controlled pivot but also emphasise the physics so long as educated hands are monitored. The 10-22 component variations are what the preferences of either west or east coast TGM will use eg. East Coast random sweep RFT and West Coaster STT top assembly random or snap.

Spot on 4bls - those yankees don't need that extra yardage and like to hit long iron and fairway wood approach shots. Maybe it's the frigid winters that render them unable to "crank it up" for max power. []

 

[Steve Khatib]

Mizuno very funny, lol, but I want to make it clear that there are pros and cons of both types of patterns : g.o.l.f.'s a game of choices and a game for thinkers.....

 

[MizunoJoe]

4bls - so you REALLY believe that picking the club up and placing it into a position at the top can provide the physics required for a full length course?

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

Physics of the Golf Stroke is very important, but, ultimately, Geometry always takes precedence over Physics. That's what the Hand Controlled Pivot of The Golfing Machine is about (incubate last paragraph in 5-0). It has nothing to do with Component Variations such as Power Package Loading Action (10-22).

Let me try to clarify

I didn't say Physics isn't important.
I didn't say Physics shouldn't be taught. In fact, it must be taught!

I think categorizing Patterns in terms of West and East Coast is a flawed and somewhat ridiculous idea (if taken seriously).

I have merely repeated what Homer Kelly said. Please don't kill the messenger! [8D]

"The alternative to Hand Controlled Pivot is, of course, Pivot Controlled Hand per 10-24-F. That does not alter the Basic Geometry or Physics requirements but assigns Physics precedence over Geometry -- Force dictating alignments. Which obviously reduces precision. But, also Clubhead Throwaway. The information for such a procedure is all included herein -- merely Monitor the Pivot instead of the Hands." [bold by Tongzilla]

What does "Monitoring" mean? Homer says:
""Monitoring" is awareness -- through "Feel", "Feedback", sensation -- of the location, condition, direction, etc. of any element for any purpose." [bold by Tongzilla]

Lets look at 10-24-F:
"The Pivot may be educated to produce geometric Hand and Club alignments and relationships with some degree of precision which would definitely improve control. Expanding this infiltration could serve as your "Relative Translation procedure (3-B) to true "Hand Controlled Pivot" procedures. But -- except as a temporary Band Aid, any mandatory Component position or location can only be disruptive and carries a prohibitive price tag." [bold by Tongzilla]

6-P-0:
"Never try to "make a shot". Make a "MOTION" -- the Motion makes the shot."

And herein, "Motion" is...?

So, if you are Monitoring the Pivot then you are using ...?

The more I think about it, the more I think we actually agree with each other (Billy and Steve)...

 

[birdie_man]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

4bls - so you REALLY believe that picking the club up and placing it into a position at the top can provide the physics required for a full length course?

Doesn't Couples do that?

 

[Brian Manzella]

When I worked with Leo, I could get him in a very GOLF LIKE top-of-the-backswing position ONLY if his head moved a bit.