I think the real swindle is this whole idea of "best-in-class" lists for everything. And Golf Digest is as guilty as anyone. I have been on their "list", and I have always taken issue with the criteria used for qualifying. Often they ask other teachers (!) to rate their peers. Do any of the panelists actually take a lesson from the people on the list? Do they track their student's progress? Do they ever watch anyone actually giving a lesson? I've probably given over 30,000 lessons in my life and was "listed" a few times, and NO ONE (other than my assistants)EVER watched me teach a single person! One more rant: These lists actually hurt people who are not on them because the naivete of the golfing public is such that they will seek the people the magazine listed. And yes I did tell the publication as much.
Top 40 teachers under 40
- Thread starter Kevin Shields
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jonnygrouville
New
Golf tuition is like nothing else.
Would I pay $250 or more for a lesson? Hmmm. I might do, but there is no way I’d fork it all out the moment the lesson was finished. For that sort of coin, you’d expect your swing to be changed for more than an afternoon. ‘Worse before it gets better’ would be much harder to swallow for this sort of money.
I like the insurance concept. Is there scope to be more creative with the “lesson” format? If you live nearby, what would be wrong with paying for a lesson that includes a ten minute check a month later to make sure you haven’t slipped back into any bad habits? You can monitor on your own with ball-flight, divots and maybe camera, but nothing is better than a couple of minutes of your coach's time eh?
A lot of it is down to the individual and all tuition is a two-way street. You can clearly see why success fees would not work, if success could be objectively measured. Promoting all of your practice time to your new swing might not necessarily improve your scores.
I had a series of lessons once where they took some stills from a swing at the start of the first lesson and then posed me for more stills in the ‘fixed’ positions. There were then drills for the things to have a look at. Yes, static and ‘positions’, but at least there was a way to track progress and handy to review (as I am sure many of us have kicked ourselves going back for another lesson to hear the same drills again). Do any of the high charging pros give you anything like this to take away? A nice little ‘value-added’ feel to it too.
I'm still finding it hard to see the value in forking out that sort of money. I know for sure I wouldn't be standing for any 'we'll work on that later' either. If you mean another lesson, you'd be wrong - we'll work on that now thank you very much. And I'd want quite a detailed explanation of why any suggested change was the right thing to do.
Even writing this, it is seeming odd that we would pay some serious money for a driver that might improve our game by a shot (if at all!), but expect so much more from a lesson that is probably less money. I'd take my old driver and a lesson from Brian like a shot.
Would I pay $250 or more for a lesson? Hmmm. I might do, but there is no way I’d fork it all out the moment the lesson was finished. For that sort of coin, you’d expect your swing to be changed for more than an afternoon. ‘Worse before it gets better’ would be much harder to swallow for this sort of money.
I like the insurance concept. Is there scope to be more creative with the “lesson” format? If you live nearby, what would be wrong with paying for a lesson that includes a ten minute check a month later to make sure you haven’t slipped back into any bad habits? You can monitor on your own with ball-flight, divots and maybe camera, but nothing is better than a couple of minutes of your coach's time eh?
A lot of it is down to the individual and all tuition is a two-way street. You can clearly see why success fees would not work, if success could be objectively measured. Promoting all of your practice time to your new swing might not necessarily improve your scores.
I had a series of lessons once where they took some stills from a swing at the start of the first lesson and then posed me for more stills in the ‘fixed’ positions. There were then drills for the things to have a look at. Yes, static and ‘positions’, but at least there was a way to track progress and handy to review (as I am sure many of us have kicked ourselves going back for another lesson to hear the same drills again). Do any of the high charging pros give you anything like this to take away? A nice little ‘value-added’ feel to it too.
I'm still finding it hard to see the value in forking out that sort of money. I know for sure I wouldn't be standing for any 'we'll work on that later' either. If you mean another lesson, you'd be wrong - we'll work on that now thank you very much. And I'd want quite a detailed explanation of why any suggested change was the right thing to do.
Even writing this, it is seeming odd that we would pay some serious money for a driver that might improve our game by a shot (if at all!), but expect so much more from a lesson that is probably less money. I'd take my old driver and a lesson from Brian like a shot.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I just cant seem to justify raising my rates until I have the time to produce the kind of learning environment that would justify those prices. An indoor bay with Trackman and TVs, a take home DVD or instant upload to youtube, etc. Until then, I will stay the same and just work harder. I like the product I put forth, but cant justify going to top dollar right now.....especially for kids.
matt kluck
New
Lesson Program
An example of a top teacher program and costs in a very simplistic form (this does not include phone calls, impromptu questions while in between lessons or emails from students that lawyers include in their fees
):
ie. First lesson-$175, every lesson therafter-$130.00, Monitored practice-8 student maximum for 1.5 hours at $40/session two times per month (insurance) plus numerous other ways to access said teacher.
Cost for golf for the season with one lesson per month (season is year round but typically 8 months) with monitored practice two times per month-$1725.00
Cost Breakdown-first lesson $175.00 (this also protects the ability for a current student to access said teacher)
second lesson through eighth lesson-$130x7=$910.00.
24 hours of monitored practice=$640.00
Average hourly rate-$1725.00/32=$54.00/hour
I believe that many people do not realize the programs that many teachers offer and, if they take advantage of the programs, greatly reduces the average cost.
This is just an example and may give another point of view to the discussion.
MK
An example of a top teacher program and costs in a very simplistic form (this does not include phone calls, impromptu questions while in between lessons or emails from students that lawyers include in their fees
):ie. First lesson-$175, every lesson therafter-$130.00, Monitored practice-8 student maximum for 1.5 hours at $40/session two times per month (insurance)
plus numerous other ways to access said teacher.Cost for golf for the season with one lesson per month (season is year round but typically 8 months) with monitored practice two times per month-$1725.00
Cost Breakdown-first lesson $175.00 (this also protects the ability for a current student to access said teacher)
second lesson through eighth lesson-$130x7=$910.00.
24 hours of monitored practice=$640.00
Average hourly rate-$1725.00/32=$54.00/hour
I believe that many people do not realize the programs that many teachers offer and, if they take advantage of the programs, greatly reduces the average cost.
This is just an example and may give another point of view to the discussion.
MK
rogerdodger
New
260 an hour for the sticks of Kentucky is ridiculous. I can see 500 an hour for
Bragg as he teaches in NYC and it is pretty pricey in that area. Funny, I think Bob Toski charges 125 an hour, and he has been doing it at the top for over forty years. In most professions, you earn more in rates as you get more experience. I agree with the post on Golf Digest, these lists are nonsense and about marketing opportunities, not a reflection of talent.
Bragg as he teaches in NYC and it is pretty pricey in that area. Funny, I think Bob Toski charges 125 an hour, and he has been doing it at the top for over forty years. In most professions, you earn more in rates as you get more experience. I agree with the post on Golf Digest, these lists are nonsense and about marketing opportunities, not a reflection of talent.
Richie3Jack
New
I'm just curious to where he gets the $260 number from. Why not just make it $250?
I'm not trying to play the moral police here, but I don't like the idea of charging that much if he can get it. I like more of the idea of charging a price that a good majority of people who are willing to take lessons can afford.
Breed could be the most brilliant instructor in the world, but at $500/hr, the reality is that only the rich can afford those lessons.
Somebody like myself, a middle class, single professional. I could afford the lesson. But when working with somebody new, I typically need to come back about once every 3-4 weeks for about the first 4 months or so...then after that probably about once every other month and then it slowly tapers off.
I couldn't afford that much at $500/hr and don't know many that could.
I learned a lot from the game from people that took from me what I could afford and a lot of times, just helping me out with questions I may have, for free. I think all of us have had these people in our lives, including Michael Breed. So to have a price tag on your lessons that only the wealthy could afford, even if you get the business, isn't giving back.
I'm all for guys making money and lots of it. I know of guys that charge up to $200/hr for lesson, but I think a few things happen:
1) that's more affordable for the general, serious lesson taking public
2) they usually cut a deal with somebody who is serious but can't quite afford it.
3) they go above and beyond to help their students even after the lesson, for free.
My guess is that it doesn't happen with somebody like Breed and I don't know how much somebody could go above and beyond and still justify a $500/hr lesson.
3JACK
I'm not trying to play the moral police here, but I don't like the idea of charging that much if he can get it. I like more of the idea of charging a price that a good majority of people who are willing to take lessons can afford.
Breed could be the most brilliant instructor in the world, but at $500/hr, the reality is that only the rich can afford those lessons.
Somebody like myself, a middle class, single professional. I could afford the lesson. But when working with somebody new, I typically need to come back about once every 3-4 weeks for about the first 4 months or so...then after that probably about once every other month and then it slowly tapers off.
I couldn't afford that much at $500/hr and don't know many that could.
I learned a lot from the game from people that took from me what I could afford and a lot of times, just helping me out with questions I may have, for free. I think all of us have had these people in our lives, including Michael Breed. So to have a price tag on your lessons that only the wealthy could afford, even if you get the business, isn't giving back.
I'm all for guys making money and lots of it. I know of guys that charge up to $200/hr for lesson, but I think a few things happen:
1) that's more affordable for the general, serious lesson taking public
2) they usually cut a deal with somebody who is serious but can't quite afford it.
3) they go above and beyond to help their students even after the lesson, for free.
My guess is that it doesn't happen with somebody like Breed and I don't know how much somebody could go above and beyond and still justify a $500/hr lesson.
3JACK
rogerdodger
New
I doubt Breed, Butch Harmon, Lead, Haney, Kostis are worried about making a living from teaching anymore. They are charging that much because they are not worried about someone saying its too expensive.
Richie3Jack
New
The real travesty, as a consumer, is that you can pay exorbitant fees for people who actually hurts your game when someone who costs 1/5th as much might be great and takes multiple strokes off your handicap. The market for golf teaching is very inefficient compared with most markets with rates having less correlation to quality than many markets.
Richie3Jack,
Just for fun lets imagine that you are 1 of 3 teachers in your town. The other 2 guys both retire and are replaced by Ledbetter and Breed. Would you like to see them set their prices the same as yours? Let’s say it’s $100 an hour, or keep their current $500 and $2500? I think you would likely lose business if they charged the same as you. The following would be prospective students options.
1. David Ledbetter. Author of multiple books. Has taught dozens of tour players and many Major Champions.
2 Michael Breed. Only current teacher with prime time TV show. Has taught multiple tour players.
3. The local guy that calls himself 3 Jack.
Nothing personal, but If you all charge the same, you may need another job. If they keep their rates high, this will probably help you to teach more, and probably raise your rates.
Just for fun lets imagine that you are 1 of 3 teachers in your town. The other 2 guys both retire and are replaced by Ledbetter and Breed. Would you like to see them set their prices the same as yours? Let’s say it’s $100 an hour, or keep their current $500 and $2500? I think you would likely lose business if they charged the same as you. The following would be prospective students options.
1. David Ledbetter. Author of multiple books. Has taught dozens of tour players and many Major Champions.
2 Michael Breed. Only current teacher with prime time TV show. Has taught multiple tour players.
3. The local guy that calls himself 3 Jack.
Nothing personal, but If you all charge the same, you may need another job. If they keep their rates high, this will probably help you to teach more, and probably raise your rates.
trickyric67
New
just my personal opinion as a capitalist. I believe that it is all about "what the market will bare". I love working with BManz and I have spent $400 for a few hours of his time on a number of occasions and I even flew across the county to spend a weekend with him. I pay what I feel is very fair if not cheap for what I am getting and would pay it every chance I get too with him.
I have a good friend that is a top 100 teacher, Mark Wood a great guy who I have always fealt really cared about and helped his students. When I first met him some 18 years ago he charged $40 for a lesson and was booked 50 hours a week. He started to raise the price so that he could cut back a little on the demand for his time. He continued to do this for about 10 years and at that time was getting a solid $200 per hour (that was 8 years ago). He finally took a director of golf job at some very swanky places around the country. He was just burned out from giving so many lessons. In the end I started to call him brinks!
I never begrudged him his fees because people were willing to pay happily and why shouldn't Mark or Brian or anyone else get wealthy doing something they are great at?
if they are not great they won't make that cash for long....
I have a good friend that is a top 100 teacher, Mark Wood a great guy who I have always fealt really cared about and helped his students. When I first met him some 18 years ago he charged $40 for a lesson and was booked 50 hours a week. He started to raise the price so that he could cut back a little on the demand for his time. He continued to do this for about 10 years and at that time was getting a solid $200 per hour (that was 8 years ago). He finally took a director of golf job at some very swanky places around the country. He was just burned out from giving so many lessons. In the end I started to call him brinks!
I never begrudged him his fees because people were willing to pay happily and why shouldn't Mark or Brian or anyone else get wealthy doing something they are great at?
if they are not great they won't make that cash for long....
birdie_man
New
No idea but quite possibly. Anything is possible.
You can't help people as good if u charge too much, I presume.
Unless you can get into the media.
birdie_man
New
Just nuts. But no surprise really.
There is more than one way to the top. (unless you think The Top is something else)
Richie3Jack
New
The thing about Leadbetter and Breed is that they probably do not generate a lot of local business. I know Leadbetter doesn't because I know somebody who works at Champions Gate and has told me about his typical clientele. I'd imagine at $500/hr, the same for Breed.
And I think if they were to magically go to $100/hr, their popularity would still generate a lot of non-local clientele.
Believe me, those guys are not doing anybody any favors by charging those rates and have no intention of doing anybody any favors. It's simple supply and demand for them. If they felt that they could make more money by charging a rate that only 10 of the richest people who don't care about golf can afford...they'd charget that rate.
Nothing illegal about that, but doesn't mean that it's right or I have to like it.
A big issue is that there's no guarantee that a lesson from anybody will improve your game. And if a guy goes to Leadbetter and pays $10K or to Breed for $500/hr and doesn't improve, then there's a good chance they'll quit the game altogether because if the supposed best can't help them and drain big $$$$ from their wallet, what good will the $100/hr guy do?
That's the problem with the Haney Project and why it's hazardous to other instructors. Haney can't teach his way out of a wet paper bag and when viewers see golfers not improve under the supposed '#1 instructor', then they think golf instruction doesn't work.
3JACK
I don't think people are too worried that golf instruction might not work, who could help Charles B. ...lol The Haney Project hazardous to other instructors, maybe a slight overstatement, more like hazardous to his own clients, just think of all the work Haney's creating for others to fix, you should thank him.
The Haney project proved that big time instructors are no messiahs.It's just big time prices.Imagine if Romano had to pay for all those lessons just to see his game go backwards.Must have been tens of thousands of dollars if Haney was charging by the hour.
To be fair though,you can't get blood out of a stone.A talented student can make a poor instructor look good and a LOFT student can make a great instructor look lousy.
To be fair though,you can't get blood out of a stone.A talented student can make a poor instructor look good and a LOFT student can make a great instructor look lousy.
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