Tour Quality?

[Redgoat]

Resident gurus,

What do you think of this swing?
What could be improved upon?
What do you think is wrong, if anything, with the ball flight?

http://redgoat.smugmug.com/gallery/104365/1/8075411

TGM and non-TGM responses are welcome...

Redgoat

 

[densikat]

That really looks very good. Hard to fault. FLW alignment is awesome at the top. Being really picky maybe he could hold the right wrist bend slightly longer. But wow, I wish I had that swing

Interested in telling us what some of the things you worked on with him to get the good changes?

 

[Powerdraw]

Awesome...what progress...this the same guy? oh my!
very nice...like Dense, i'll take it.
question...why do you teach to have the shaft of club pointing between ball and feetline on backswing? what are the goods and bads of this? thanks!

 

[Mathew]

Not tour quality no.... it will be capable of producing of often perhaps producing tour quality shots but I believe that the swing but over the four rounds of any tournament the compensation his motion requires will surface - this is the noticable difference between being on a lower tour and being on the PGA tour.... It could mean the difference of maybe just one stroke a round - over 4 days - 4 strokes - which is the difference between making the cut or the difference between winning and loosing.... and its a big advantage...

Why is it capable of producing great shots.... because just before the ball is struck the clubshaft matches (on perhaps too steep for a driver mainly because of his R.shoulder never getting deep enough) that trail forearm and the acceleration of the onplane alignments lags the right wrist hinge pin....but I do not believe the way he got there was the simpliest method (repeatability)...

Its a good swing but no not tour standard....although you just never know - if he has a short game, imagination and above average areas outside of fullswing.... he could still be on tour...but it means that those areas have to be alot better to compensate for when it matches up wrong....and when he goes off... you'll have a hard time getting back to finding the matched position again....hence prone to spells of offline striking....

 

[David Alford]

Actually looks better than Bobby Jones's and a lot of guys on tour. I guess I could argue this from either side, but seeing some swings of the Major winners lately, anything is possible. It's not bad at all.

 

[wally888]

Would adding a little axis tilt at address........?

 

[Redgoat]

Thanks for the insights.

Powerdraw,

To answer your question, the club pointing between the target line and the toes is something I do encourage in many of my students, but not all. In fact, with several including Fox and even David K. this is not the case. In the vast majority of students, this helps the player "shape" the backswing to get the left arm and the clubface in line at the top. I have found this to be quite helpful in getting the club to attack the ball with fewer compensations approaching impact.

Mathew,

I am not sure I fully understand your critique. Are you saying that the clubshaft bisecting the right forearm is too steep in this particular swing? I am not following the lagging of the right wrist hinge pin comment, or the statement that this is not the simplest method, please help me with more information.

Densikat,

Why would you want him to hold the right wrist bend longer? I fully understand the principles behind sustaining the line of compresion but what benefit do you see for this particular player? I can tell you for background that he is extremely long and quite accurate, so I am trying to understand why? Thanks again for the kind words about the swing, I appreciate it.

Brady

 

[densikat]

Brady,

The comment was made mainly from a TGM perspective that the optimum is to hold the amount of bend established at impact fix for the duration of the swing, in this swing it is not done. This is not an imperative though.

I think if that bend is held well into followthrough and beyond it will reduce the risk of over-roll and the tendency to hook that better players have.

 

[cdog]

I have always wondered why the rear wrist bend all through the swing was emphasized tonce the ball is gone, what does it matter?
4-d-1 "Any loss in Impact Fix Right wrist bend DURING RELEASE immediately become left wrist bend, club head throwaway."

 

[wally888]

Redgoat. My previous comment, meant to be a question, hoping to learn something, re. "adding some axis tilt at address"(away from target line), was prompted by my untrained eye perceiving a too steep downward path resulting in lower than desired ball flight/launch angle.
Still wondering what results would be if the address position was changed?

 

[Redgoat]

Wally,

Your question was a good one. I am assuming you meant away from the target and not the target line. David K. came to me with an excessively inside takeaway that caused the club to cross the line at the top, start down steep and then drop too far to the inside as it approached impact. This is a very common problem with good players who take the club back inside and produced blocks and hooks.

More tilt at address would produce similar results. The tilt would create a lower right shoulder throughout the swing and an excessively inside attack to the ball. We have spent many hours working on improving his ability to, one of Brian's favorite terms, become more "stacked" throughout the downswing. This has yieled very positive results.

Excessive tilt, more lag and maintaining the bend in the right wrist longer makes me visualize Brad Faxon, someone I would rather my students not look like during the swing. BTW, you can see his swing on my website for comparison.

Redgoat

 

[Powerdraw]

quote:Originally posted by Redgoat

Thanks for the insights.

Powerdraw,

To answer your question, the club pointing between the target line and the toes is something I do encourage in many of my students, but not all. In fact, with several including Fox and even David K. this is not the case. In the vast majority of students, this helps the player "shape" the backswing to get the left arm and the clubface in line at the top. I have found this to be quite helpful in getting the club to attack the ball with fewer compensations approaching impact.

Brady, i was wondering this cause see, when i see my swing on the computer, and put a line through the shaft at setup and through bod, the hands-handle get over that line pretty much on getgo, while clubhead stays on the line ok...i get it back ok at club // too ground but then the hands lift up creating the shaft pointing well outside of targetline-ball...i get it back on the way down pointing to that line on a steeper plane, but you can already see my good and bad days everyother day! any thoughts? just wondering if this club pointing between ball and toes is a good thing for me...you have not seen my swing, i know, its a little long, right knee tends to straighten out at top but i still get away with it. just want to get another perspective.

interesting stuff.

 

[wally888]

quote:Originally posted by Redgoat

Wally,

Your question was a good one. I am assuming you meant away from the target and not the target line. David K. came to me with an excessively inside takeaway that caused the club to cross the line at the top, start down steep and then drop too far to the inside as it approached impact. This is a very common problem with good players who take the club back inside and produced blocks and hooks.

More tilt at address would produce similar results. The tilt would create a lower right shoulder throughout the swing and an excessively inside attack to the ball. We have spent many hours working on improving his ability to, one of Brian's favorite terms, become more "stacked" throughout the downswing. This has yieled very positive results.

Excessive tilt, more lag and maintaining the bend in the right wrist longer makes me visualize Brad Faxon, someone I would rather my students not look like during the swing. BTW, you can see his swing on my website for comparison.

Redgoat

Redgoat. I see the tilt in Brad F.'s pics.
Comparing the swing/address in question, compared to Mark Brooks and others, they seem to have more tilt, head a little more behind ball at address also more behind ball at impact?
Comments? The ideal axis tilt or how ideal is different for different golfers because of body build, swingers/hitters, etc??

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by densikat

Brady,

The comment was made mainly from a TGM perspective that the optimum is to hold the amount of bend established at impact fix for the duration of the swing, in this swing it is not done. This is not an imperative though.

I think if that bend is held well into followthrough and beyond it will reduce the risk of over-roll and the tendency to hook that better players have.

Denny,

Did you mean to say "to follow through"? I can't find anywhere in Mr. Kelley's book where he says to keep the right wrist bent all the way through the swing. For any kind of swing speed, the right wrist must flatten after Follow-Through and then gets re-established at Finish.

 

[Mathew]

quote:Originally posted by Redgoat

Mathew,

I am not sure I fully understand your critique. Are you saying that the clubshaft bisecting the right forearm is too steep in this particular swing? I am not following the lagging of the right wrist hinge pin comment, or the statement that this is not the simplest method, please help me with more information.
......
Brady

I wrote it a bit quickly so just mind me if you didn't understand me properly. Anyways, what I was meaning by the right wrist hinge - I was refering to the fact if you mechanically where going to make a machine to emulate the different parts of the human body and in this case (right wrist) - a machine would define the right wrist as a hinge pin on set through the wrist like it was an opening(bending r wrist) and closing(unbending r wrist) door. The right wrist just bends and the idea is to accelerate that hinge pin on a correct geometrical inclined plane alignments right right through the plane line hence sustaining the Lag Pressure without force or restraint.

His right arm motion which is crutial IMO isn't the simpliest sequence- His forearm is aligned well inside the plane line and is then forced to have shifts within the swing along the turned shoulder plane (which for him isn't deep enough) - Shifts cause problems maybe not always noticable on a shot to shot basis but over those 4 rounds - its an advantage to have a simplier swing that doesn't do this. He does however have an onplane (roughly) acceleration through the ball which explains why he can probably produce in general accurate shots - but I question how often bad shots can happen ?

Only recently am I starting to get all the aspects of it coming together - In TGM the 'magic of the right forearm', 'right forearm takeaway'. The geometrical sequence and movements(planes) within the swing and keeping our r. wrist hinge pin pressing the lever (the club) back against the end of the hinge's range ofmotion it by creating the correct an online accelaration down and through the ball.... creating a defined impact non independant on timing, channeling if you may. And this is a lesson which has revolutionised my thinking behind the golf stroke. Your movements can define impact before they start and if you do it right - the ball will always go where it wants... their is no chance and it allows you the opportunity to deform (compress) the ball with the correct alignment of thrust right out the sweetspot.

 

[David Alford]

Tilt varies with the swing model, address/hand position, and personal preferance.

 

[densikat]

quote:Originally posted by rwh

quote:Originally posted by densikat

Brady,

The comment was made mainly from a TGM perspective that the optimum is to hold the amount of bend established at impact fix for the duration of the swing, in this swing it is not done. This is not an imperative though.

I think if that bend is held well into followthrough and beyond it will reduce the risk of over-roll and the tendency to hook that better players have.

Denny,

Did you mean to say "to follow through"? I can't find anywhere in Mr. Kelley's book where he says to keep the right wrist bent all the way through the swing. For any kind of swing speed, the right wrist must flatten after Follow-Through and then gets re-established at Finish.

No, I pretty much meant what I said. Although it is by no means essential or imperative, it is the optimum in tgm terms. The flattening of the right wrist adds no power.

To quote Homer

"One must maintain a Flat Left Wrist until the end of Follow-Through. It can go to the finish if they stay with it properly for this does assure that it will not bend at all."

If you keep it flat all the way to finish, the amount of impact fix bend in the right wrist will be kept.

 

[Mathew]

quote:Originally posted by densikat


No, I pretty much meant what I said. Although it is by no means essential or imperative, it is the optimum in tgm terms. The flattening of the right wrist adds no power.

To quote Homer

"One must maintain a Flat Left Wrist until the end of Follow-Through. It can go to the finish if they stay with it properly for this does assure that it will not bend at all."

If you keep it flat all the way to finish, the amount of impact fix bend in the right wrist will be kept.

Your perfectly right, but if I was being really picky - the bending and unbending of the wrist can actually create power because it moves the club in space over a period time meaning their is thrust, its just its the application or usage is undesirable. It destroys the lagging right arm assembly downwards thus meaning the power is lost in the more important power producers. It also destroys the forward lean (descending blow) at impact giving variable loft meaning bad distance control....

 

[rwh]

quote:Originally posted by densikat

quote:Originally posted by rwh

quote:Originally posted by densikat

Brady,

The comment was made mainly from a TGM perspective that the optimum is to hold the amount of bend established at impact fix for the duration of the swing, in this swing it is not done. This is not an imperative though.

I think if that bend is held well into followthrough and beyond it will reduce the risk of over-roll and the tendency to hook that better players have.

Denny,

Did you mean to say "to follow through"? I can't find anywhere in Mr. Kelley's book where he says to keep the right wrist bent all the way through the swing. For any kind of swing speed, the right wrist must flatten after Follow-Through and then gets re-established at Finish.

No, I pretty much meant what I said. Although it is by no means essential or imperative, it is the optimum in tgm terms. The flattening of the right wrist adds no power.

To quote Homer

"One must maintain a Flat Left Wrist until the end of Follow-Through. It can go to the finish if they stay with it properly for this does assure that it will not bend at all."

If you keep it flat all the way to finish, the amount of impact fix bend in the right wrist will be kept.

Denny,

I stand corrected and thank you for doing so. Can you tell me where to look in the book for that quote (I have the 6th Edition).
Thanks again.

 

[bcoak]

looks to be a little out on his toes throughout the whole swing