Good point. I've never seen a convincing explanation of offset. If anybody has one I'd be keen to read it.
Trackman and Gear Effect
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Good point. I've never seen a convincing explanation of offset. If anybody has one I'd be keen to read it.
Steve Greffen
New
...on one side of the pond, lol. I'm going to respond fully in that other thread 
And smart guys like you and Birly will be a couple of the first guys to buy it, I just know it!!
And smart guys like you and Birly will be a couple of the first guys to buy it, I just know it!!
I totally agree with the importance of sweet spot contact being somewhat "under-addressed" as an issue, and would love to hear what the professional instructors here have to say about how to teach/learn it and whether or not you can do so independently of working on other full swing "issues" at the same time.
To get back to Ballaholics point, I think the answer is yes - Right now the effect is a calculation at best. If I see a student with face closed to path and the shot is a fade, I guesstimate it was hit toward the heel. But there is no formula that I know of that can measure it accurately. And it is a very important area for both teachers and players. We are told that 1/2 inch toward heel is equal to 2* closed and that 1/2 inch toward toe is 2 open. But that still cant be measured. I'm sure it will be at some point. Hopefully soon. Actually my unit, has TPS which has a tab labeled "face to path". That itself is an upgrade from previous models where that stat had to be calculated I think. Great post.
S
SteveT
Guest
If you hit badly off the clubface sweet spot, you don't bother measuring "gear effect".... you just abort and delete.
Look ... if you are hitting badly off the sweet spot it's more than likely that you have a bad face angle too. You don't have to measure that kind of shot, you just trash it. You don't develop sophisticated equipment to measure failure!!!
If you think gear effect should be a factor in a better understanding of Trackman values, I think not.
Many years ago when launch monitors appeared, the rule was that it was only helpful for single digit handicap golfers, because the duffers were too inconsistent to bother measuring. Things degenerated to the point that launch monitors were used on duffers shopping for a "best driver", and after a bunch of swings, the two best readings were considered valid ... and the many mis-hits were trashed. This was done to justify the use of launch monitors for marketing purposes. It was pathetic.
Gear effect should only be considered if you deliver the clubface squarely and you are only less than a 1/2" off the sweet spot... otherwise forget it. Also, no amount of MOI mass can compensate for impact badly off the sweet spot.. IMHO
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ballaholic
New
Agreed
I don't necessarily agree. Sometimes what you're suggesting is spot on. However it's definitely possible for a good player to have good face angle and path and not hit the middle of the face. You think Tiger hits the middle of the face every time? Think when Tiger doesn't hit the middle of the face it's always comes along with a bad face angle? No way. Now if you're referring to an 18 handicapper who is missing the middle by 3/4 of an inch with face angles that vary by 12 degrees on each swing... then I totally agree with your point.
Couldn't disagree more... if you understand gear effect and resulting spin, and also recognize that even tour pros don't hit the exact center of the face every time, then I don't see how you would propose that gear effect shouldn't be a factor in understanding Trackman values. In fact I would put it up there as one of the most critical values. If you have the opportunity to ask the CTO of Trackman if he thinks gear effect would be a valuable data point, you're going to hear a resounding YES, loud and clear. Just because it's not in the analysis doesn't mean it's not critically important. It's not in the software because they can't accurately measure it yet. But the second they're able to figure out a way to get it in there (perhaps with certain sets of clubs with specs that are "known" to Trackman), you can bank on a quick appreciation for it and it's effect on ball flight.
I agree with you here... 1/2 inch is going to have a huge effect on the ball though, especially at high swing speeds. Not sure how you got from "If you think gear effect should be a factor in a better understanding of Trackman values, I think not." to this last quote above, but it's nice you've seemingly come back to accepting gear effect having an important role.
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Frans@France
New
You're correct. you can't really quantify it without buying some nice cog surveying tool and some others like roll/bulge and open/closed face measuring tools.
But I also agree with SteveT : If the shot is not in the sweetspot learn how to improve! No need to (re)calulate the exact contribution to the shot curve based on the gear effect.
Frans@France
New
If you visit this thread you will find some links how to do some basic calculations about gear effect. : http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/14779-calling-all-gear-effect-experts-3.html
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Ballahollic, it is not only possible but very probable that top players that have no face and path issues are NOT hitting the exact center of the face
Todd Dugan
New
What gets missed often in gear effect analysis is that impacting on the toe doesn't, by itself, make the ball hook. It puts a "hook torque" on the ball. There is still the consideration of face to path at max compression, which, of course, changes from first impact to max compression, for off-center impacts. And I maintain that an iron impacted on the toe with 0* face to path at first contact does not usually hook. This is asserted in "Search" and I've always found this situation to produce a straight push, personally. But, if there was no gear effect, the ball would fade. Also, you lose ball speed and spin rate for off-center impact, reducing curve. And reduced spinloft in irons reduces curve in irons also. So those factors may be partly responsible for the lack of curve on off-center impacts with irons.
Steve Greffen
New
What is your definiton of toe hit? How far off the center? Did you read Tuxen's Trackman researched article? Seems to counter your findings.
Todd Dugan
New
Yes, I do see where Tuxen has said that an impact with a #6 iron, one dimple towards the toe, will cause a "baby draw" when otherwise the face is sqaure to path. I'm on vaca and away from my library, but now I recall that "Search" actually states that a toed iron will tend to fade (not hold straight as I said earlier) just a bit, not draw......but not as much as you would expect with a face which has twisted open to path during collision. They state that the gear effect is present, otherwise the ball would fade more, but the effect is not so strong to cause the ball to actually hook, as will be the case with woods. This is where they point out that a concave clubface would actually help to "corrcect" iron shots, as a convex face does with woods. But again, this is not legal. But, if the gear effect was strong enough with irons to cause a spin in reverse of what would be expected from the face to path difference, then irons would be built with bulge on the face, like woods/hybrids, no? So yeah, there is a discrepency in data findings between "Search" (not me) and Tuxen, in this regard.
And again, just from my experience, a heeled iron shot will start a little left, then tend to draw, not fade.
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Frans@France
New
Might be because of the difference in equipment used then and now. Extreme example : 1900 Burke wood shafted #5 has his rearward cog in front ( outside!) of the face while the 2001 callaway hawk the cog is behind the face. I can recommend "the maltby playability factor" book and pdf's about this subject.
...on one side of the pond, lol. I'm going to respond fully in that other thread
And smart guys like you and Birly will be a couple of the first guys to buy it, I just know it!!
Hey, that's only half an admission. I guess if Brian puts both days on the video I'll just buy one day!
S
SteveT
Guest
If you want to get the best out of Trackman or any launch monitor, learn to hit the ball on the sweet spot +/- 1/4"... otherwise you're deluding yourself. Gear effect is the last resort of duffers trying to salvage their incompetence... and the OEMs will exploit their neurotic fears with fantastic promises (legally, a promise is not a guarantee).
Btw... if you want to examine "gear effect", you will have to discriminate between "vertical" and "horizontal" gear effects .... good luck..
Btw... if you want to examine "gear effect", you will have to discriminate between "vertical" and "horizontal" gear effects .... good luck..
ballaholic
New
Gear effect is a scam and the last resort of duffers trying to salvage their incompetence... Btw... if you want to examine "gear effect", you will have to discriminate between "vertical" and "horizontal" gear effects .... good luck..
Let's see your swing and scores.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
If you want to get the best out of Trackman or any launch monitor, learn to hit the ball on the sweet spot +/- 1/4"... otherwise you're deluding yourself. Gear effect is a scam and the last resort of duffers trying to salvage their incompetence... and the OEMs will exploit their neurotic fears with fantastic promises (legally, a promise is not a guarantee).
Btw... if you want to examine "gear effect", you will have to discriminate between "vertical" and "horizontal" gear effects .... good luck..
I discriminate between "vertical" and "horizontal" gear effects EVERYDAY on the tee, and Tuxen covered them both in depth.
You need to go back to talking about things you know about.
magicmarker
New
Out of curiousity, what topic was that?
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