Trackman Questions

[ekennedy]

Yesterday was my first day using Trackman for teaching/fitting. First of all, coolest thing ever. But I have some questions...

1- It seems that a players alignment has a "huge effect" on the Trackman readings. If a player consistently aims left but swings slightly inside out, Trackman will read it as a negative swing direction. The opposite would be true for players that aim significantly to the right. Any thoughts? I would like to think that the club is not acting the same way (rate of closure) for a player that aims at the target and swings left as opposed to a player that simply aims way left and swings toward the target.

2- Ball position with the Driver seems to have a major effect on both swing direction and angle of attack. I understand it's impact on the D Plane, but has any Trackman user found that in an effort to get better numbers (higher launch, lower spin) that it creates a very inconsistent pattern for the player?

3- Can Trackman be fooled? I had a few readings yesterday that should have created a certain ball flight but didn't. For example, our club champion was hitting drivers that were hooking 22 yds left of his target. A of A- +7.9, Club Path -1.5, Club Face- +1.5, HSP- +2.5, VSP- 63.6 degrees, Smash Factor 1.50.

Seems like that ball shouldn't hook that much...I need a ruling.

 

[savydan]

1. That seems obvious. Since Trackman measures all the horizontals off the target line, your alignment (where you set your machine) can trump your actual swing.

2. The further away from zero the AoA, the greater the discrepancy b/t HSP and CP. So, yes, that would seem to bring in more variability.

3. You're missing the vital piece, the Dynamic Loft. With a driver, it's likely the lowest and easier to tilt the D-plane (or tilt the spin axis) and thus easier to curve the ball.

 

[Steve Greffen]

1. That seems obvious. Since Trackman measures all the horizontals off the target line, your alignment (where you set your machine) can trump your actual swing.

So I would guess that you want to set up a very specific target to aim the machine at and make sure the student knows their intended target. Doesn't mean that they will aim at it with perfect right angles and from my enlightenment with Trackman there are instances where you don't want to set up with perfect alignment. (perpendicular)

Keep the questions up, I will be interested in your experience. Thanks Eric. And thanks for the response too Savydan!

Steve

 

[ekennedy]

We certainly set the machine up at a specific target and gave the students the same target in which to aim. That does not change their personal tendencies, however.

Savydan, I'm not quite sure how a Dynamic Loft of 8.8 changes any of the other parameters to the point where you would go, "Well sure it would hook...his dynamic loft is 8.8." That's never been discussed on this form, as far as I know, at any point.

Positive A of A, path is negative, face is open, ball hooked 22 yards. Splain?

 

[Steve Greffen]

And I would have said a toe hit but the 1.5 smash factor shuts that down. Was this one swing? Did you see the ball itself to see it's flight? Did the other shots react differently?

 

[ekennedy]

Steve-

It was a pretty consistent ball flight, started slightly left and then turned further left. He is an amazing ball striker-played some on the tour in the 70's- but he said he'd been hitting a few left to left's recently. I watched him make his own adjustments and on the last ball, he added some axis tilt and hit the ball on a frozen rope, just right of his target with no curvature at all.

I would not have guessed that his club face averaged 1-2.5 degrees open, but never closed. It's confusing.

 

[savydan]

No, no. The "machine" reference is your body (the golfer's aim), not the little orange box. Ha, ha.

We've talked about the height of the DL setting the top of the D-plane, and the higher up it is, the less the D-plane is tilted per degree of differential b/t the CP and CF. Less D-plane tilt, less axis tilt of the ball, less curve.

Lower DL, more tilt, more curve. Basic D-plane.

 

[cwdlaw223]

"3- Can Trackman be fooled? I had a few readings yesterday that should have created a certain ball flight but didn't. For example, our club champion was hitting drivers that were hooking 22 yds left of his target. A of A- +7.9, Club Path -1.5, Club Face- +1.5, HSP- +2.5, VSP- 63.6 degrees, Smash Factor 1.50."

Has to be gear effect due to an off center hit on the toe. Not hard at all with a driver for that disparity and the shot might even feel "okay." That would have been a hard fade (border line slice) to the right if hit on the sweetspot. That might be a little steep with the driver due to the 63.6* VSP which is more in line with a PW (I think).

Maybe Trackman II will be able to determine how many dimples off of center (who knows, just a thought)???

 

[ekennedy]

I'm just confused. I've been sticking with the "ball starts on the face and works away from the path." Face was to the right, path was to the left. Clearly, that's not the case on these driver swings. They were dead nuts solid.

Brian swings left with with driver 4* or so, hits up on the driver and hits a fade. Seems to me that I should have seen that ball flight with those numbers, but until he opened the face up more, he was hitting double cross draws. If hope its not waaaaaaaay more complicated than that.

 

[Frans@France]

1- It seems that a players alignment has a "huge effect" on the Trackman readings. If a player consistently aims left but swings slightly inside out, Trackman will read it as a negative swing direction. The opposite would be true for players that aim significantly to the right. Any thoughts? I would like to think that the club is not acting the same way (rate of closure) for a player that aims at the target and swings left as opposed to a player that simply aims way left and swings toward the target.

It wil read like a negative swing direction because it is negative towards the target (as set on the trackman). Very important that both trackman and golfer agree on the aim

2- Ball position with the Driver seems to have a major effect on both swing direction and angle of attack. I understand it's impact on the D Plane, but has any Trackman user found that in an effort to get better numbers (higher launch, lower spin) that it creates a very inconsistent pattern for the player?

Ball position and consequence depends on the golfer. There are those that will swing the same and there for show difference in clubface (more closed/less open) and AngleOfAttack as expected (higher/less negative) others will react completly different and adjust the swing in what ever way.

Displacement of the ball position is my favorite trick to understand the golfers swing behaviour. I rather explain a golfer that he should place the ball slightly more to the left feet then trying to find the same values using some weird weight distribution in the clubhead if possible.

3- Can Trackman be fooled? I had a few readings yesterday that should have created a certain ball flight but didn't. For example, our club champion was hitting drivers that were hooking 22 yds left of his target. A of A- +7.9, Club Path -1.5, Club Face- +1.5, HSP- +2.5, VSP- 63.6 degrees, Smash Factor 1.50.

Seems like that ball shouldn't hook that much...I need a ruling.

Never saw a trackman fooled BUT did see weird values when target is not set correctly! or a driving range ball of bad quality (broking core).

But was it really fooled? If you see the ball being hooked 22 yards and the trackman displayed the same value then where is the foolling? If the trackman did not see that hook but displayed an other ball flight then more likely an other ball crossed the flight and the trackman started tracing that other ball. Happened to me once , serious fun to see happening on the laptop.

However, weird about these values is (besides the VSP 63.6 which is rather vertical) is the clubpath outside-in but with a rather large positive HSP. That would mean that he started outside-in but after impact was more to the right then expected. Seriously nice trick shot!! As said above I also think some serious gear effect in that ball.

 

[Frans@France]

I'm just confused. I've been sticking with the "ball starts on the face and works away from the path."

Please note the disclaimer on that line "only with center hits"

 

[Frans@France]

...path was to the left...

did you check the horz. launch angle?

 

[Kevin Shields]

A hook with an open face reading is a toe hit....and the smash factor can still be high due to high toe "hot spots" and lower spin off toe hits.

The severe positive AoA made the path left but he prob thows the toe in from feeling underneath perhaps

 

[Kevin Shields]

Mega high VSP for a driver

 

[ekennedy]

It wil read like a negative swing direction because it is negative towards the target (as set on the trackman). Very important that both trackman and golfer agree on the aim

Frans, there is nothing like being talked down to by an 18 handicapper. Only on a Golf Forum.

Yes, Trackman was calibrated correctly and yes, the student understood what the target was...

FYI, the Smash Factor was 1.5 and the mark on the driver was dead center. I understand gear effect. It wasn't gear effect.

This wasn't a trick shot. He's a former tour player who routinely shoots in the 60's. I was just trying to find out what I was missing when it comes to reading the numbers. Other than Clubface, A or A, or Club Path, assuming center clubface contact, what else should I be looking at based on the numbers I provided?

I want to keep renting Trackman, but the better players need to trust me and the numbers to get them on board.

 

[Kevin Shields]

If the path was -1.5 thats about 7 or 8 yds left of the target at 250 yds. If he even hit it a few dimples toward the toe it will draw the rest of the way to the left side of the fairway.

 

[ekennedy]

Now "that's" an excellent answer. I would expect nothing less.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I'm into the wine pretty deep. I have a heightened sense of golf awareness the more red I consume.

 

[Steve Greffen]

Would you expect anything less from a pair of PA boys!!

Lol

 

[Steve Greffen]

Btw perhaps it's my own wine indulgence tonight but Kevins post does make a lot of sense to me as well. Like I had this feeling it had to be something close to that without the ability to put a finger on it.