Tumble Torque

[gmbtempe]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v8yoZjqqj4[/media]

I agree with this premise, or at least the idea that some of this torque is good in the golf swing based on how I view what I want to accomplish.

What I did not understand from viewing the segment is what is creating the torque. Is this a wrist maneuver, forearm, shoulder?

What is the best mechanical way to achieve the torque if one was looking to add one?

Thanks,

greg

 

[Kevin Shields]

There are differences in opionion on this but some say the most efficient way would be to steepen handpath from a slightly laid off position while some might say actively put force across the shaft with the right hand (forefinger) or the muscles in your lead forearm. Im sure there are other ways but any of them would be difficult if there was a horizontal force applied to the grip end during the downswing.

Shoulder tumble is necessary for some (Rory Mcilroy) but avoid it if possible. IMO

 

[gmbtempe]

There are differences in opionion on this but some say the most efficient way would be to steepen handpath from a slightly laid off position while some might say actively put force across the shaft with the right hand (forefinger) or the muscles in your lead forearm. Im sure there are other ways but any of them would be difficult if there was a horizontal force applied to the grip end during the downswing.

Shoulder tumble is necessary for some (Rory Mcilroy) but avoid it if possible. IMO

I have been using a little push downward of the left shoulder then it feels like some torque from the right arm. Shaft then steepens vertically. This is not the move for an over the top player but for someone under plane it has worked really well. I also feel like it helps a left ward path which for me is a positive.

 

[crucible]

Interesting topic. For me it feels as if the flying wedge triangle moves from somewhere in the left shoulder to a point below the shoulder i.e. the the place where the lt arm meets the chest, the left pectoralis muscle on the downswing. The question is if there is any or how much counterclockwise rotation with the hands is necessary?

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Interesting topic. For me it feels as if the flying wedge triangle moves from somewhere in the left shoulder to a point below the shoulder i.e. the the place where the lt arm meets the chest, the left pectoralis muscle on the downswing. The question is if there is any or how much counterclockwise rotation with the hands is necessary?

A ton of info in the sergio/tumble thread. Check it out if you have not already.

 

[crucible]

I have been using a little push downward of the left shoulder then it feels like some torque from the right arm. Shaft then steepens vertically. This is not the move for an over the top player but for someone under plane it has worked really well. I also feel like it helps a left ward path which for me is a positive.

A ton of info in the sergio/tumble thread. Check it out if you have not already.

Thank you I will. Dave

 

[SteveT]

Tumble Torque = Rubbish + Ignorance ....!!!!

Anybody who tries to apply an axial torque on the club through "applied supination" of the lead forearm is an idiot because you're depending on reactive "feeeel" ... (and that includes Hogan) .. and stop calling it a "tumble" ...!!!!

Brian, I hope your Project 1.68 physics doctorate buddies enlighten you on your abject ignorance of body-club mechanics at high speed...!!! Also before you have your secret meeting read and study Search for the Perfect Swing as an entry level education to science and golf.

Your saving grace is that you want to learn to emerge from your TGM-induced ignorance ... to your credit ...!!!!

Also ....

Flying Wedge ..??!!!! ... It looks like a "wedge", it "flies" like a wedge ... it must be a Super Flying Wedgie ....!!!!

JEEZ, Brian ... when will you flush TGM visuals and vocabulary out of your veins and brainlet because scientifically, nothing is "wedging" ... sheeeesh ...!!!!!

Don't make the Death of Horton to no avail ...!!!!!

 

[holeout]

Tumble Torque = Rubbish + Ignorance ....!!!!

Anybody who tries to apply an axial torque on the club through "applied supination" of the lead forearm is an idiot because you're depending on reactive "feeeel" ... (and that includes Hogan) .. and stop calling it a "tumble" ...!!!!

Brian, I hope your Project 1.68 physics doctorate buddies enlighten you on your abject ignorance of body-club mechanics at high speed...!!! Also before you have your secret meeting read and study Search for the Perfect Swing as an entry level education to science and golf.

Your saving grace is that you want to learn to emerge from your TGM-induced ignorance ... to your credit ...!!!!

Also ....

Flying Wedge ..??!!!! ... It looks like a "wedge", it "flies" like a wedge ... it must be a Super Flying Wedgie ....!!!!

JEEZ, Brian ... when will you flush TGM visuals and vocabulary out of your veins and brainlet because scientifically, nothing is "wedging" ... sheeeesh ...!!!!!

Don't make the Death of Horton to no avail ...!!!!!

I always picture you jumping up and down and throwing things before writing these posts, then pacing around after hitting "Submit Reply."

I would tell you to calm down, but I think it's more fun this way.

 

[footwedge]

Tumble Torque = Rubbish + Ignorance ....!!!!

Anybody who tries to apply an axial torque on the club through "applied supination" of the lead forearm is an idiot because you're depending on reactive "feeeel" ... (and that includes Hogan) .. and stop calling it a "tumble" ...!!!!

Brian, I hope your Project 1.68 physics doctorate buddies enlighten you on your abject ignorance of body-club mechanics at high speed...!!! Also before you have your secret meeting read and study Search for the Perfect Swing as an entry level education to science and golf.

Your saving grace is that you want to learn to emerge from your TGM-induced ignorance ... to your credit ...!!!!

Also ....

Flying Wedge ..??!!!! ... It looks like a "wedge", it "flies" like a wedge ... it must be a Super Flying Wedgie ....!!!!

JEEZ, Brian ... when will you flush TGM visuals and vocabulary out of your veins and brainlet because scientifically, nothing is "wedging" ... sheeeesh ...!!!!!

Don't make the Death of Horton to no avail ...!!!!!

Does that include the twistaway manuever?

 

[SteveT]

I would tell you to calm down, but I think it's more fun this way.

I was confronting BManz etal with my harangue ... and all I got was you ... sharing your feeelings with everybody.

 

[SteveT]

Does that include the twistaway manuever?

Is 'twistaway' a high speed manuever, or is it just a slow speed fully conscious backswing motion?

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

There are differences in opionion on this but some say the most efficient way would be to steepen handpath from a slightly laid off position while some might say actively put force across the shaft with the right hand (forefinger) or the muscles in your lead forearm. Im sure there are other ways but any of them would be difficult if there was a horizontal force applied to the grip end during the downswing.

Shoulder tumble is necessary for some (Rory Mcilroy) but avoid it if possible. IMO

Kevin,

Is your recommendation to avoid shoulder tumble, if possible, anything to do with the line in the other thread about making the shoulder turn too steep for the resultant sweetspot path or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Thanks,

James

 

[SteveT]

WTF is "shoulder tumble" ...????!!!!!!!

 

[wulsy]

WTF is "shoulder tumble" ...????!!!!!!!

Tumbling the shoulder

 

[spktho]

Is 'twistaway' a high speed manuever, or is it just a slow speed fully conscious backswing motion?

Brian can explain it better, since he is the one who teaches it, but I can describe how I feel it in my swing. The feel I have is to maintain the relationship between the left hand/wrist/forearm to the club face. In doing so, I do feel like I twist the shaft, but only until right after the transition, then it feels like holding on to the established alignment. No real movement of twisting is felt until way after impact. It's as if a splint was placed down the forearm through the wrist into the hand and clamped on the club shaft. If too much "twist" is applied, then of course the ball goes left and the converse is true too.

I know this probably sounds like a horrible thing, but without it, I would only hit huge slices which led to more swing faults trying to compensate for poor club face control.

 

[SteveT]

Tumbling the shoulder

You mean like in a somersault ...??!!!

 

[Ringer]

It's not a totally silly notion IMO.

I don't think anyone can deny the importance of the clubface alignment at impact. How we achieve that alignment I believe can be broken down into 5 components. Ball placement relative to the axis, the grip to clubface relationship, the rotation of the shoulders at impact, the rotation of the upper left arm (or right arm.. they are interchangeable), and the rotation of the lower left arm (or lower right arm). Getting the face square is a mixed bag of all 5 of these things. If you change one, then you have to adjust 1 or more of the others to compensate.

Tumble torque seems nothing more to me than the rotation of the upper left arm or upper right arm to cause some rotation of the clubface relative to the target line.

 

[SteveT]

Brian can explain it better, since he is the one who teaches it, but I can describe how I feel it in my swing. The feel I have is to maintain the relationship between the left hand/wrist/forearm to the club face. In doing so, I do feel like I twist the shaft, but only until right after the transition, then it feels like holding on to the established alignment. No real movement of twisting is felt until way after impact. It's as if a splint was placed down the forearm through the wrist into the hand and clamped on the club shaft. If too much "twist" is applied, then of course the ball goes left and the converse is true too.

I know this probably sounds like a horrible thing, but without it, I would only hit huge slices which led to more swing faults trying to compensate for poor club face control.

Look .. you should be able to adapt your body release to a cupped or flat wrist from the top of the swing. If you can't do that, you have biomechanical/kinesthetic problems in your golfswing. You can compensate for various lead wrist alignments with ball positioning and body action to achieve a square clubface at Impact. The only consideration is which action provides you with the most consistency going into final Release and at Impact.

It seems you have resolved your lead forearm positioning at the top and into the downswing, so you are not consciously applying any supination torque aka 'tumble'.

When somebody on the forum describes their swing problems, the first think I think about is what kind of body type is involved ... and this should be the first question asked. What you describe about your feel situation may stem from your body structure, and without knowing that I really can't comment.

 

[SteveT]

Tumble torque seems nothing more to me than the rotation of the upper left arm or upper right arm to cause some rotation of the clubface relative to the target line.

If you are doing this in your downswing, your golfswing is biomechanically flawed.

 

[spktho]

Look .. you should be able to adapt your body release to a cupped or flat wrist from the top of the swing. If you can't do that, you have biomechanical/kinesthetic problems in your golfswing. You can compensate for various lead wrist alignments with ball positioning and body action to achieve a square clubface at Impact. The only consideration is which action provides you with the most consistency going into final Release and at Impact.

It seems you have resolved your lead forearm positioning at the top and into the downswing, so you are not consciously applying any supination torque aka 'tumble'.

When somebody on the forum describes their swing problems, the first think I think about is what kind of body type is involved ... and this should be the first question asked. What you describe about your feel situation may stem from your body structure, and without knowing that I really can't comment.

I absolutely have biomechanical/kinesthetic problems in my golfswing, which is why I'm here. I have tried to control some of the most controllable variables and that seemed to be the most influential to the golf ball. I'm just an old broken down baseball player 6'0", 170-175lbs. But, somehow I don't think that's what you mean by body structure.