tumble

[JEREMY5577]

I'm afraid I'm with Erik_K and having a hard time understanding this. I don't want you to waste your time with guys like me trying to explain it.

For a golfer who throws the club out and over the plane initially to try to tumble over the plane more on the way down does not compute. In my mind it would only work if they initially flatten under the plane then tumble out over the plane.

I've seen the demonstration videos by Manzella and Jacobs so I do understand visually what this tumble move is. Anyway............

Keefer, tumble was a way for me to work on my swing backwards meaning I did exactly what you said came even more over the top hit with an extremely shut face and pulled the crap out of it. I had to figure out how to make it work so I started to shallow earlier. The reason I stuck with it was because of the obvious increase in power I noticed when I threw the clubhead at the ball and not my hands.

 

[Erik_K]

I'm afraid I'm with Erik_K and having a hard time understanding this. I don't want you to waste your time with guys like me trying to explain it.

For a golfer who throws the club out and over the plane initially to try to tumble over the plane more on the way down does not compute. In my mind it would only work if they initially flatten under the plane then tumble out over the plane.

I've seen the demonstration videos by Manzella and Jacobs so I do understand visually what this tumble move is. Anyway............

That's what I was trying to say earlier...tumbling for the sake of tumbling might lead to horrendous results. However, and someone else already mentioned this, if you tumble with a steep swing I think other light bulbs could go off. You will realize that other things must fall into place earlier (proper transition move/sequencing/club shallowing) and then the tumble component really shines.

I thought Brian was going to produce a video on the various phases of the downswing. That ultimately might answer a TON of questions.

Erik

 

[Keefer]

I guess we are on the same page. What I call the "pro" move in the initial transition move down is where the better players flatten the swing. I get that, and that is the move most of us hackers need to develop. That move for most hackers does not come naturally. They throw the club out over the plane initially, instead of going under initially.

Harry Vardon described this initial move down as trying to swing the club toward his right heel. Trying to do that would bring the club under early and then I can see where the tumble would be needed half way down.

So for me the real info needed is how do golfers initially flatten instead of steepen. As Harvey Penick said what's sometimes needed to fix a problem is go to the other extreme and work back from there. So get the hacker to really flatten in the transition down and then work on the tumble.

 

[Erik_K]

I guess we are on the same page. What I call the "pro" move in the initial transition move down is where the better players flatten the swing. I get that, and that is the move most of us hackers need to develop. That move for most hackers does not come naturally. They throw the club out over the plane initially, instead of going under initially.

Harry Vardon described this initial move down as trying to swing the club toward his right heel. Trying to do that would bring the club under early and then I can see where the tumble would be needed half way down.

So for me the real info needed is how do golfers initially flatten instead of steepen. As Harvey Penick said what's sometimes needed to fix a problem is go to the other extreme and work back from there. So get the hacker to really flatten in the transition down and then work on the tumble.

Quite right. Penick also had the "magic" move where the weight transferred to the left side and, at the same time, the right elbow dropped down. I think we was getting at a solid transition move, a move that truly separates the plus index players from those who cannot break 120 on saturday afternoons. Context is everything. Better players with good top of swing positions and good start down moves are probably going to reap the benefits of the tumble quite rapidly. However if the shaft is steep coming down, if your hands have moved to the ball from the top, etc...I think your are dead from the get-go.

Erik

 

[Lifter]

Keefer, the swing that looks steep,is ultimately shallow because it always works under the hands late. Don't let the shaft angle fool you. Those swings have shallow impacts that cut under or behind the ball because the do the exact opposite of a good player. Steep,early, shallow late. Top ball strikers shallow the club early then steepen it late. Hang in there on this one, it could definitely help any golfer.

Here is a good video example of someone doing exactly the wrong thing (steepening early / shallowing late):

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Rx9v3BjAcs0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Kevin Shields]

Keeper and Erik_K, I'm not sure I'm understanding your points. Nobody argues that you have to flatten the shaft to do it.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Here is a good video example of someone doing exactly the wrong thing (steepening early / shallowing late):

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Rx9v3BjAcs0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Like Father, unlike son.

 

[Keefer]

Keeper and Erik_K, I'm not sure I'm understanding your points. Nobody argues that you have to flatten the shaft to do it.

The problem is obviously being lost in translation.

Then how do you do it? Back to square one. Lost.

 

[Keefer]

Here is a good video example of someone doing exactly the wrong thing (steepening early / shallowing late):

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Rx9v3BjAcs0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Looks like the ball went straight.

 

[Lifter]

Like Father, unlike son.

Not really his fault. He has Parkinson's, which severely restricts his ability to turn. As a result, he has virtually no time available to shallow the shaft during transition.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian..Reverse Tumble? Please comment. Sugestions welcome.

Yes, this a classic case of a pretty darn good swing with a few mistimed pieces.

If your club would go out more early, the left arm flying wedge would have to rotate more to the top and you would porbably not steepen it early. What that means is your hands from the top need to go a bit more out early (carry) with some reverse rotation of the club to lay it down a bit.

Then you could steepen it by working the left hand in the 2nd phase and through by working the left hand back.

One of Brian's best videos, tons of info

It was a lesson review. But it was good enough to poset up. Glad folks like it. The player is superior player and din't need any real explanations beyond what was on the piece.

Would it be fair to say that most recreational golfers have a too steep over the plane move down, therefore this tumble move would just steepen it more. It seems you always hear that most average hackers come over the top and not under the plane.

Lots of so-so players need to learn to learn the proper first two phases of the downswing....

Phase 1: Pull early, reverse beta/tumble.

Phase 2: Left hand in clubhead side over—steepening tumble)

​

...before they can work on the last—through impact—phase...

Phase 3: Negative Alpha (pulling the top end of the grip back), Negative Beta & Positive Gamma (all summing up to ("Going Normal").​

Why?

BECAUSE THE EITHER HAVE THE FACE OPEN or it used to be and even after they "fixed it" they still have remnants of the old "over the top move" (steepening early, with POSITIVE BETA and not enough pull).

If they don't learn to do phase 1 correctly (pulling and laying the shaft down), they shouldn't THINK about trying to fix phase 2 (the Tumble).

So pretty much, you were wrong.

A simple apology will do.

They might come over it with their hands but the club always works under plane, or under the plane of the hands late in the downswing. Most hackers have little to no steepening moves in the swing the affect the club. It works the other way, forcing swallowing of the club, especially late.

Like I said.

Not sure I understand, but that's par for the course. If the club is always under plane, then why do most over the top steep swinging hackers strike a lie board with the toe end of the club-head? Isn't that an indication that the swing is too steep / high hands at impact (toe down divots)?

The steepening move with many hackers is right from the top. They never make the initial "Pro" flattening move to shallow out the plane. In my mind making this move for the already steep hacker would be a death move. The toe would dig even deeper into the ground.

It seems who this tumble move is really for is the good golfer who gets stuck coming from too far inside or under the plane, like Tiger used to. Again, most hackers swing from too far out to in, so I can't see how this tumbling out over the plane move helps a too steep swing.

Not even close.

Are you a hacker or a hacker teacher playing the part of hacker in the movie?

Listen, if you shallow late, you might DIVE AT THE BALL with forward bend and backed up hips and take a divot the size of a Ruth Chris' Porterhouse.

Keefer, the swing that looks steep,is ultimately shallow because it always works under the hands late. Don't let the shaft angle fool you. Those swings have shallow impacts that cut under or behind the ball because the do the exact opposite of a good player. Steep,early, shallow late. Top ball strikers shallow the club early then steepen it late. Hang in there on this one, it could definitely help any golfer.

And that too....

I'm afraid I'm with Erik_K and having a hard time understanding this. I don't want you to waste your time with guys like me trying to explain it.

For a golfer who throws the club out and over the plane initially to try to tumble over the plane more on the way down does not compute. In my mind it would only work if they initially flatten under the plane then tumble out over the plane.

I've seen the demonstration videos by Manzella and Jacobs so I do understand visually what this tumble move is. Anyway............

Read the above, and if you don't understand it, you can by the next video.

 

[ryant91]

Tumble?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Not really his fault. He has Parkinson's, which severely restricts his ability to turn. As a result, he has virtually no time available to shallow the shaft during transition.

I did not know that. God bless him for still playing.

 

[Brian Manzella]

It could still correctly tumble from there.

 

[Lifter]

I did not know that. God bless him for still playing.

Playing golf is really good for his health. Plus he enjoys it a lot. Makes him feel good, despite a stubbed chip or putt every now and then.

 

[lia41985]

Brian..Reverse Tumble? Please comment. Sugestions welcome.

A little inside out, heavy, and toe-ey. Fo sho.

 

[Keefer]

Yes, this a classic case of a pretty darn good swing with a few mistimed pieces.

If your club would go out more early, the left arm flying wedge would have to rotate more to the top and you would porbably not steepen it early. What that means is your hands from the top need to go a bit more out early (carry) with some reverse rotation of the club to lay it down a bit.

Then you could steepen it by working the left hand in the 2nd phase and through by working the left hand back.



It was a lesson review. But it was good enough to poset up. Glad folks like it. The player is superior player and din't need any real explanations beyond what was on the piece.



Lots of so-so players need to learn to learn the proper first two phases of the downswing....

Phase 1: Pull early, reverse beta/tumble.

Phase 2: Left hand in clubhead side over—steepening tumble)

​

...before they can work on the last—through impact—phase...

Phase 3: Negative Alpha (pulling the top end of the grip back), Negative Beta & Positive Gamma (all summing up to ("Going Normal").​

Why?

BECAUSE THE EITHER HAVE THE FACE OPEN or it used to be and even after they "fixed it" they still have remnants of the old "over the top move" (steepening early, with POSITIVE BETA and not enough pull).

If they don't learn to do phase 1 correctly (pulling and laying the shaft down), they shouldn't THINK about trying to fix phase 2 (the Tumble).

So pretty much, you were wrong.

A simple apology will do.



Like I said.



Not even close.

Are you a hacker or a hacker teacher playing the part of hacker in the movie?

Listen, if you shallow late, you might DIVE AT THE BALL with forward bend and backed up hips and take a divot the size of a Ruth Chris' Porterhouse.



And that too....



Read the above, and if you don't understand it, you can by the next video.

I'm just a 10 capper who likes golf (playing, watching, reading etc.). Saw your video and Jacobs video and you haven't convinced me that if a steep swing adds some tumble that it's somehow a good thing. Gamma, Beta or Whateva. I don't need to "tumble" anyway. So I'll just "tumble" on out of this thread. I should know better getting involved with these too deep in the weeds threads anyway.

Pass on the video....... Thanks anyway.................

 

[Erik_K]

I'm just a 10 capper who likes golf (playing, watching, reading etc.). Saw your video and Jacobs video and you haven't convinced me that if a steep swing adds some tumble that it's somehow a good thing. Gamma, Beta or Whateva. I don't need to "tumble" anyway. So I'll just "tumble" on out of this thread. I should know better getting involved with these too deep in the weeds threads anyway.

Pass on the video....... Thanks anyway.................

Don't bail out yet, Keefer. The only way to learn is to ask questions. I think it is a fair statement that the tumbling concept is not very intuitive. It's not like we are encouraging a huge debate over the efficacy of tumbling. Instead I think you are trying to understand the idea in more detail. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Erik

 

[Brian Manzella]

I'm just a 10 capper who likes golf (playing, watching, reading etc.). Saw your video and Jacobs video and you haven't convinced me that if a steep swing adds some tumble that it's somehow a good thing.

An athlete who doesn't play golf would have gotten it from my last long post.

I'm not buying what you are selling.

 

[ryant91]

This is a PGA Tour Player that came to visit a couple weeks ago. I am the guy in the red shirt video. I ball strike much better than this player but he is magic in competition. Just trying to get a better grasp on the the tumble concept. Thanks Brian, i appreciate your hard work trying to help us instructors. Wish there were more like you.