turning clubface open on takeaway

[tongzilla]

"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could."

If you look at swings of Hogan when his clubshaft is parallel to the ground on the takeaway, it basically points straight at the target (or maybe slightly to the right of target, but no where nearly as much as Snead), and the toe of the club points straight up as opposed to being more open. My question is how can Hogan feel like he is doing the above and yet achieve these 'orthodox' clubhshaft and clubface positions?

 

[pecky987]

to me, hogan had a pivot pulled backswing. im not an expert on the various golf swings throughout hogans career, but i defiantely seen him pull the club to the inside a similar amount as snead did, a la SD. if you do this there is a likelyhood that hte face may be closed using this sort of takeaway. when he was more accurate and used more of an arm dominated backswing, this sensation of rolling the face open may have felt extreme to him, but may not have been that open at all.

again take this with pinch of salt, as i am guesstimating alot with hogans swing thru the years

 

[birdie_man]

This is a very good thread.

I always was confused by this.

Especially when you start hearing things like (some of?) his clubs were also bent open, flattened, had stiff shafts.

"What the (expletive!)"

(sayeth I)

It might fit if he was doing a twistaway in his backswing. But he pretty obviously was rolling it open more than that in the backswing. From what I've seen, his left wrist was never more arched than flat at the top........and often was bent to some degree. (pretty slightly)

To me, I am skeptical that he opened it as much as he "possibly could."

On a related note, it is interesting how much he slides towards the target in the downswing though. Hogan's swing I've always thought looked different. (his pivot)

Brian fixes too open clubfaces in slicers...............they are too open to play well with..........yes?

I dunno.

I open the club up a good bit these days..........but anything beyond that is what I think of as "slicer open." It has been trained out of my swing but I can still do it if I make an effort.

But I probably then could no longer take a divot or ever draw it and would probably be always timing a flip in trying to close the face.

 

[birdie_man]

when he was more accurate and used more of an arm dominated backswing

Arm dominated backswing?

this sensation of rolling the face open may have felt extreme to him, but may not have been that open at all.

He notoriously DID have a big problem with hooks, eh pecky?

I still don't even get that though come to think of it.

i.e. I have never seen images of his swing where it looked like his swing was a really bad "hook swing."

Anyone got any?

 

[Matt 4-L]

When Hogan first started caddying at Glen Garden, as the story goes the caddies would have driving contests on the hardpan texas dirt and Hogan would lose all the time. He figured out if he cranked his hands around to a strong grip he could hit rope hooks that would run on the hard pan....He played with a strong grip for the first part of his professional career and suffered from the hooks, I think Henry Picard was the first to suggest a weaker grip to Hogan. I don't know if there is much footage of Hogans swing from back in the thirties? I will look through my Hogan DVD's.

 

[Matt 4-L]

Here's an excerpt from the 1949 Time article:

In 1946 (after 2% years in the Army, all of it Stateside), he shot his way right back to the top of the heap, with earnings of $42,556. But try as he might, Ben couldn't seem to win the big one—the U.S. Open. His swing still didn't suit him; his drives still had a tendency to hook.

"I've Learned How." In a quarter-century of the game, Ben Hogan had probably hit more golf balls than any man alive. Then one day in 1947 while he was walking out to a practice tee in Fort Worth, a brand new idea occurred to him. He hit a few shots in what was for Ben a slight change of style. He had lost the hook (which golfers say always rolls till it reaches trouble) and found a fade (a slight drift to the right) which he could control with great accuracy.

Then, Ben Hogan began to ease up on his solitary practice lessons. Said he: "I've learned how to play golf." His recent book, Power Golf (A. S. Barnes; $3), tells most of the golf tactics he knows—but not the one he discovered that day at Fort Worth. Of that one he says: "I won't even tell my wife."

Whether Ben had found a new trick or whether he had merely shifted his grip a little, nobody really knew.

 

[cmartingolf]

"I rolled the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was rotating the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could."

If you look at swings of Hogan when his clubshaft is parallel to the ground on the takeaway, it basically points straight at the target (or maybe slightly to the right of target, but no where nearly as much as Snead), and the toe of the club points straight up as opposed to being more open. My question is how can Hogan feel like he is doing the above and yet achieve these 'orthodox' clubhshaft and clubface positions?

It looks like zero forearm rotation. No pop out.

I think that's where the rest of the world got messed up. They all tried it and .... POP.

 

[Matt 4-L]

I went and looked at some older swings from Hogan and the differences I noticed were: He narrowed his stance some which is relative because he still had a fairly wide stance but what I really noticed was his left arm at impact there was a considerable space between his arm and chest as there was not in later swings. It looks as if he changed his swing path, I think he must of really had an inside out swing path. And of course you could see the famous grip change to a "weaker" grip. I could not see the cup in the left wrist, the old footage is just to grainy for me to spot it.

 

[jenhaoyen]

It looks like zero forearm rotation. No pop out.

I think that's where the rest of the world got messed up. They all tried it and .... POP.

you mean this?

 

[Kevin Shields]

I am now less of a man for having watched that, if you know what I mean

 

[tongzilla]

It looks like zero forearm rotation. No pop out.

I think that's where the rest of the world got messed up. They all tried it and .... POP.

There are basically two ways to go about answering my question. You can say Hogan was lying and trying to mislead us. Or you can say Hogan was telling the truth, and this was what he really did feel. I personally think it's the latter (no real evidence...just a gut feeling). I think Hogan incorporated other moves in this swing (consciously or not) that prevented the shaft and face from looking unorthodox even though he tried to roll it as open and as fast as he could.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Hogan Rolled the Face Open and Counter Rotated the Face Square at the Same Time...

There are basically two ways to go about answering my question. You can say Hogan was lying and trying to mislead us. Or you can say Hogan was telling the truth, and this was what he really did feel. I personally think it's the latter (no real evidence...just a gut feeling). I think Hogan incorporated other moves in this swing (consciously or not) that prevented the shaft and face from looking unorthodox even though he tried to roll it as open and as fast as he could.

.

 

[Guitar Hero]

High Speed Cameras

There are basically two ways to go about answering my question. You can say Hogan was lying and trying to mislead us. Or you can say Hogan was telling the truth, and this was what he really did feel. I personally think it's the latter (no real evidence...just a gut feeling). I think Hogan incorporated other moves in this swing (consciously or not) that prevented the shaft and face from looking unorthodox even though he tried to roll it as open and as fast as he could.

Hogan may have appeared to have zero forearm rotation to the eye when watching the old footage of him but what Hogan did in detail you cannot see with those videos.

It took many hours with 3-D and CAD to determine what movement and how much was going on with different parts of his swing. I had to have the videos enhanced to even work with them. I did have a good idea what he was doing when I started this research as I have been studying the sweet spot motion and path with 3-D and CAD the last few years.

I wonder when TPI and other fitness programs are going to wake up and see how much sweet spot motion and path has to do with body motion. Probably never as most are chiropractors and physical therapist. They need to study the body when it is moving balanced weight (Sweet Spot). Bodybuilders know more about moving balanced weight then they do.

TPI what a joke! I know I am getting off topic but it pisses me off when I know we are being scammed again.

The new High Speed cameras today will help instructors and golfers understand the swing better and they are going to change the way we teach the golf swing in the future. Sell your video camera and line drawing programs and buy a High Speed camera 300 to 1000 frames.

Go to the driving ranges and shoot many week end golfers’ swings and good player’s swings and start looking at the differences in super slow motion 300 to 1000 frames. You will see things like never before.

 

[Bronco Billy]

"sweet spot motion and path" May Also be Defined as "The Path of Least Resistance"..

Hogan may have appeared to have zero forearm rotation to the eye when watching the old footage of him but what Hogan did in detail you cannot see with those videos.

It took many hours with 3-D and CAD to determine what movement and how much was going on with different parts of his swing. I had to have the videos enhanced to even work with them. I did have a good idea what he was doing when I started this research as I have been studying the sweet spot motion and path with 3-D and CAD the last few years.

I wonder when TPI and other fitness programs are going to wake up and see how much sweet spot motion and path has to do with body motion. Probably never as most are chiropractors and physical therapist. They need to study the body when it is moving balanced weight (Sweet Spot). Bodybuilders know more about moving balanced weight then they do.

TPI what a joke! I know I am getting off topic but it pisses me off when I know we are being scammed again.

The new High Speed cameras today will help instructors and golfers understand the swing better and they are going to change the way we teach the golf swing in the future. Sell your video camera and line drawing programs and buy a High Speed camera 300 to 1000 frames.

Go to the driving ranges and shoot many week end golfers’ swings and good player’s swings and start looking at the differences in super slow motion 300 to 1000 frames. You will see things like never before.

.

 

[tourdeep]

This is a very good thread.

On a related note, it is interesting how much he slides towards the target in the downswing though.

How much of the slide happens in the backswing, 1/2 or more?

 

[tourdeep]

you mean this?

Hey now! I enjoyed that movie! And I found myself liking the song too! kinda catchy!

 

[tongzilla]

Bronco, you said: "Hogan Rolled the Face Open and Counter Rotated the Face Square at the Same Time..."

Please explain.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Opening the Door While TwistAwaying to the Top of the BackSwing...Not Much To It...

Bronco, you said: "Hogan Rolled the Face Open and Counter Rotated the Face Square at the Same Time..."

Please explain.

.

 

[tongzilla]

Opening the Door While TwistAwaying to the Top of the BackSwing...Not Much To It...

what makes you think he used the TwistAway at the top? It doesn't look like it since the shaft is slightly laid off, and his left wrist is flat to slightly cupped.

 

[cmartingolf]

There are basically two ways to go about answering my question. You can say Hogan was lying and trying to mislead us. Or you can say Hogan was telling the truth, and this was what he really did feel. I personally think it's the latter (no real evidence...just a gut feeling). I think Hogan incorporated other moves in this swing (consciously or not) that prevented the shaft and face from looking unorthodox even though he tried to roll it as open and as fast as he could.

I think Hogan incorporated other moves in this swing (consciously or not) that prevented the shaft and face from looking unorthodox even though he tried to roll it as open and as fast as he could.

Me too

Moe told me his club head and face stayed on the target line for 40" back and 40" through....

Might have felt that, but it sure wasn't happening.