Twistaway, Baseball, and an underactive lower body

[Jwat]

I would like to start off and say that without Brian and the forum, I would have already quit playing this year. I am a former Div 1 college Baseball player and have been to some of the best instructors in the nation (Steve Johnson -Hank Haney, Greg Labelle - Butch Harmon, Brian Manzella). I have been told by everyone except Brian that I won't ever be a consistant iron player because my baseball swing reverts into my golf swing. Right now I am a 6 handicap and with my shortgame should be scratch. But my inconsistancy with my swing brings in alot of extra strokes that most golfers at my skill level avoid. Brian can vouch for me on this.

My Swing: Most of the time I have been laid off due to not being hinged at the top of the swing. Then would either be underactive with my hips/lower body or overactive with the lower body and move my weight forward but keep my left hip closed which would block me. Worked on opening up left hip on downswing but I make such a violent move due to swinging a baseball bat for 18 years straight that it would be shank city.

Anyways I have implemented the Twistaway in my swing and it has drastically cured my backswing position and now I am hinged on the backswing. (Dont have an extreme twistaway due to tight wrists and forearms but clubface is closed at the top) Never hit the ball more solid or as far. Then the flipping started happening and now I pullhook the ball off of the planet. Scheduled 2 different dates with Brian and weather has ruined both times. My first lesson with Brian he worked with me on the carry. (this was before I started the twistaway) Dont want to get rid of the twistaway on the backswing because its the first time my club has gotten into posistion on a consistant basis. Plus it works with my body.

Would you guys mind taking a look at my swing? Anyones suggestions would be greatly appreciated. The first swing is a bad duck hook and the 2nd one is a short iron that was struck really well.

Jerad

YouTube - Jwat 8/3 duckhook

YouTube - Jwat 8/3 good shot

 

[Jwat]

For some reason after looking at the first swing again, my spine angle is extremely tilting back. Anyone else see this?

 

[vjsinger]

Jerad,

You're going through the exact same thing I am right now. I played baseball for many years as well. I've worked on the twistaway, the carry, but when I do that I move wrong and get inconsistent ballflight results galore. I've tried all I can think of. I've worked on "footwork", weight shift, dropping my arms first, leaving them up..lots of things. I figured that my problem lies in the transition and I am working my ass off to fix it and reading everything I can. This thread and the set-up thread I hope gives me the answer, as well I'm sure you are hoping for the same. So, I'll ask the question to all..How the hell do you teach the transition? Brian has had me try and get my tush under me more at impact, it's why we changed my shoulder turn in the backswing to steeper. Am I just too fat and do I need to lose weight? Do Jerad and I need more flexibility, or is it more of when we transition?

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I always find that good baseball players struggle with clubface control which leads to all kinds of issues. I can't view your swing at work, but that would be my guess. Generally inconsistency in iron play always somehow reverts back into poor clubface control and as i said generally that is what happens with baseball players because you have never had to control a face; only a shaft (bat).

The more you can control the face the better you will be able to do other things you are trying to do.

 

[greenfree]

For some reason after looking at the first swing again, my spine angle is extremely tilting back. Anyone else see this?

Yes, it looks like you have over done the axis tilt and your arms are stuck behind you, because your blocked by your left hip not clearing around, your hands have to take over and with a more closed clubface you hook it. Just my thought, i'm sure more qualified people can answer you.

You have too much tilt and not enough rotation, if you know what i mean, and a closed clubface.

 

[Jwat]

I always find that good baseball players struggle with clubface control which leads to all kinds of issues. I can't view your swing at work, but that would be my guess. Generally inconsistency in iron play always somehow reverts back into poor clubface control and as i said generally that is what happens with baseball players because you have never had to control a face; only a shaft (bat).

The more you can control the face the better you will be able to do other things you are trying to do.

Jim, couldn't have been said better. I have never had clubface control in my golfswing until I began the twistaway. Now I feel like I know the angle of the face in relation to my hands. But my iron play has always struggled more than my driver.

Today I played my home course (toughest in my city out of 10 courses) and shot a 78. Should have been alot better but a chunk in the water and a full shank led to 2 double bogeys. Anyways I found out that at address my wrists were cocked up where only the toe of the club was sitting on the ground (extremely). Just asking to hook it. So I lowered my hands like I was trying to hit a cut and straightened it out to a soft draw. I am still occasionally pulling it but not as bad. Will you check out today's swing and let me know what you think? Looks like I am pretty laid off. The camera angle sucks, but my dad does his best.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37571GHDxQg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutube%2Ecom%2Fuser%2Futilisav&feature=player_profilepage[/media]

 

[Brian Manzella]

Simple.

You HAVE TO get the clubshaft on line the last time the club is parallel before impact.

Then you can work the face less closed.

A little hip bump to the right on the backswing wouldn't hurt either.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Not to be a kiss- ass but I couldnt agree more.

 

[Jwat]

You HAVE TO get the clubshaft on line the last time the club is parallel before impact.

Then you can work the face less closed.

So you are saying that I should lengthen my backswing or complete it? And by doing so than I should pull-hook it less or be less trapped on the backswing?

A little hip bump to the right on the backswing wouldn't hurt either.

Also I need to be opening the right hip more on the backswing or bumping it back like on NHA?

Thanks in advance for the replies. Look forward to a lesson very soon.

 

[Jwat]

Oh, are you saying that I need to "carry" more on the downswing? The problem I have is that I don't shake the sugar. This makes me come out over it and I hit everything on the heel at the top of the clubface.

 

[wdking]

"that I won't ever be a consistant iron player"

Rubbish.
Just because you are here on this site means you don't believe that statement. We are all here to improve. For me, improvement is my motivation to play. Just be patient...and get that ball more forward up in your stance.

The line Brian speaks of is during the delivery/downswing, when the club is parallel to the ground before impact. He talks of it extensively in "Soft Draw", a pattern that you will no doubt visit during your improvement journey.

Keep working!

Regards,
Wayne

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jwat...something that might help you is this:

I am a former baseball player as well and was a good hitter; in the baseball swing generally at impact the right palm is facing the sky versus in the golf swing the right palm should be more facing the pitcher if that makes sense.

The more you have that baseball right palm up the more you are going to shank/hit it really thin. Twistaway should help

 

[ssssc]

Jwat...something that might help you is this:

I am a former baseball player as well and was a good hitter; in the baseball swing generally at impact the right palm is facing the sky versus in the golf swing the right palm should be more facing the pitcher if that makes sense.

The more you have that baseball right palm up the more you are going to shank/hit it really thin. Twistaway should help

damn, jim ... that post is money ... what a fantastic visualization that is ...

thanks ...

 

[Kevin Shields]

Ex baseball players need to retain their turn and slide onto the left hip and twistaway definately.

 

[Jwat]

Ex baseball players need to retain their turn and slide onto the left hip and twistaway definately.

Thanks for the comments! Kevin, I really believe the twistaway is key for me. I have always had a problem getting a full turn. It isn't because I physically can't, its only when I am hitting a golf ball. During practice swings I get the left shoulder over my right foot and the club past parallel but during real swings I maybe get 3/4. Have you ever addressed this with a student? When I concentrate solely on a full turn during the round is usually when I hit the best. But making a consistant full turn is difficult for me when hitting a ball. Its like I am hitting at the ball instead of through it.

I shot 73 today at my home course only because I hit alot of fairways. Had 2 double bogeys from shanks. Was +1 on the par 5's. I average 300+ off of the tee. But my second shots in with a long iron always are pulled and sometimes hooked. I never am under par on the par 5's. I think if I ever learn to hit them I will be shooting under par.

 

[Jwat]

Jwat...something that might help you is this:

I am a former baseball player as well and was a good hitter; in the baseball swing generally at impact the right palm is facing the sky versus in the golf swing the right palm should be more facing the pitcher if that makes sense.

The more you have that baseball right palm up the more you are going to shank/hit it really thin. Twistaway should help

Jim, I definitley will be working on that tommorrow. Great illustration! You always have great input.

 

[jtf8751]

I too am a former college baseball player and I have the same problems. I do the twistaway and I still shank. I think I rotate too fast and maybe come over the top? I'm not sure on that but i do square the clubface so something else is going on. Also I was a pull hitter when playing baseball and when I swing just a little bit hard my pull hitting style of swinging creeps back in and and I usually duck hook everything because I try to pull the ball and I lean back, can't get out of that also. So I know the feeling of fighting with an old baseball swing. I shanked on alot of holes yesterday but my short game is good and shot an 81. Its just frustrating that I can't stop shanking

 

[jeffreycharris]

Ex baseball players need to retain their turn and slide onto the left hip and twistaway definately.

i'd played baseball too, and this is me to a tee

 

[puttmad]

Jim, I definitley will be working on that tommorrow. Great illustration! You always have great input.

Jwat, just a little additional thought for you to "release" more correctly...
At impact try and make the butt end of the club point at your navel....try it in slo-mo first, you'll get the picture...that should automatically make your right palm face targetwise....
ATB...

 

[braveheart]

I too am a former college baseball player and I have the same problems. I do the twistaway and I still shank. I think I rotate too fast and maybe come over the top? I'm not sure on that but i do square the clubface so something else is going on. Also I was a pull hitter when playing baseball and when I swing just a little bit hard my pull hitting style of swinging creeps back in and and I usually duck hook everything because I try to pull the ball and I lean back, can't get out of that also. So I know the feeling of fighting with an old baseball swing. I shanked on alot of holes yesterday but my short game is good and shot an 81. Its just frustrating that I can't stop shanking

I played a lot of baseball then softball and I too had a this problem. My major problem was and is (when tired or not focused) coming out of my posture thus hips and arms all move closer to the ball. In baseball we are not as bent over, we are used to hitting a ball with our bodies more erect. Easier hitting a driver with its flatter swing plane but tough at times to adapt to the steeper iron swing. Twistaway was a godsend when I first started using it, now with better posture and spine angle awareness I have less need for it and more able to stay down and through.