Underhand Javelin Throw SDP Question

[Damon Lucas]

FoS,

Think about the SDP for a sec... it is a draw pattern, meaning plane line is shifted a little to the right....meaning the shaft will swing a bit more from the inside and give the APPEARANCE of being in line with the right forearm.

It is a reference point, and an approximation for some patterns, but not something you hang your hat on.

 

[fanofSnead]

Damon,
Understood, but I never said I was "hanging my hat on it" I was just using it as a reference point as you said. I know when Im in this position at this point of the swing the club shaft is pointing approx. one yard left. It cant help but being in line w/ my forearm.

 

[fanofSnead]

fanOfSnead...

A position like Hogan, Trevino, Nelson, Sergio is a good one.

But check some Nicklaus photos man. The GOLDEN Bear, baby!

Good luck.

Birdie,

Jack was the greatest, but he played a fade and I want to play a draw. I also don't want to have multiple back surgeries like he did from finishing in a severe reverse C.

[media]http://frattinghard.com/wp-content/uploads/80.jpg[/media]

 

[birdie_man]

Birdie,

Jack was the greatest, but he played a fade and I want to play a draw. I also don't want to have multiple back surgeries like he did from finishing in a severe reverse C.

[media]http://frattinghard.com/wp-content/uploads/80.jpg[/media]

Ya Jack was Ok...

For the record (even though I do suspect it is still irrelevant), did he even have back surgery?

But alright- how about David Toms?

To me, having a reverse C finish does not seem to go hand in hand with using a steeper downswing plane.

BTW Hogan and Trevino hit fades too.

And before you say it: path and plane angle are also seperate things. One can hit draws on any plane.

Who knows- the ease of which may even be somewhat debatable. Maybe. Though I am not sure it is a debate that would overwhelmingly favour The Elbow Plane- if it would even favour it at all.

I have made lots of changes of late but as far as I know I am still on The TSP. I have hit many a draw and suspect I have the ability to hit one as well as anyone.

Maybe Tom Bartlett could weigh in too...he is a more accomplished player than myself.

I'm really not interested in trying to pin you down or anything at this time BTW- just in case there is any question on my intentions. (now or previously)

...

-Paul

 

[birdie_man]

Ha.

An influx of kookoos!

Yes?

The largest influx in a good while. Maybe as far back as the carol_galleyz, playa_brian Era even.

It's as if a Troll Army has been sent to bm.com...

Strange!

 

[Kevin Shields]

Damon,
Understood, but I never said I was "hanging my hat on it" I was just using it as a reference point as you said. I know when Im in this position at this point of the swing the club shaft is pointing approx. one yard left. It cant help but being in line w/ my forearm.

Perfect. Then I would use the shaft as a reference point. Let the imperatives dictate the components, not the other way around. Put the club in UJT attitude first, if it lines up with your forearm, great, all the better. It might sound like semantics, but all these positions or certain components of the swing fall into place if the focus is on the imperartives of the pattern, of which the right forearm is not one of them. Because for others it might not line up. It doesnt for me until impact.

Example: Do not focus on keeping your right arm above the left in the SD backswing......do a proper LCT and the right arm will be on top. Something like that.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Whoa...

In the "Soft Draw Pattern," the downswing horizontal swing plane (plane line) is aligned "a yard to the right."

This will produce a draw will all clubs, with the the driver it will probably have to be aligned slightly more to the right.

If you make an "Underhanded Javelin Throw" move, the likelihood that you will "down-shift" to the elbow plane is probably pretty good.

But not 100%

There is NOTHING wrong with a "Turned Shoulder Plane" downswing like many Hall-of-Famers.

There is no doubt more of the best Hall-of-Famers were elbow plane downswingers.

But, in my opinion, always based on solid research, and blood sweat & tears on the lesson tee, trying to get on the elbow plane, instead of focusing on plane line, is only a good idea in very limited cases.

Hope this helps.

 

[tourdeep]

Ya Jack was Ok...

For the record (even though I do suspect it is still irrelevant), did he even have back surgery?

-Paul

yes, recently. one time only.

hip surgery some time ago, knee too.

 

[birdie_man]

Thanks TD.

I knew of the hip and knee but really had no clue about the back.

 

[fanofSnead]

Paul,

so you think a reverse C and the damage it does to the spine is irrelevant.....BALONEY

 

[Brian Manzella]

Nicklaus did not have a "classic" reverse "C."

He just stayed in his axis tilt longer.

The "Classic" reverse pivot is one where the left knee goes WAY toward the target—outside the left foot—and the back arches backward to counter-balance the weight.

Fan,

Jack Nicklaus had one of the best golf swings ever, and was an AWESOME ball striker.

I wouldn't throw him under the bus to make your point.

 

[fanofSnead]

Brian,

Jack would kick my ass if I tried to throw him under the bus


I want to get the "drunk off my back" too, but Ive just read articles from guys like Watson and Player that had to make changes from the way they were swinging in the 70's due to back issues.

Not dissing the Golden Bear man....

 

[birdie_man]

Paul,

so you think a reverse C and the damage it does to the spine is irrelevant.....BALONEY

No. Don't be stupid.

All I was saying:

As far as I can tell, TSP downswings and reverse C finishes/back problems are seperate variables and do not neccessarily go hand-in-hand.

Save the Baloneys for Brian to use.

MORTADELLA.

 

[fanofSnead]

Hey birdie

No. Don't be stupid.

All I was saying:

As far as I can tell, TSP downswings and reverse C finishes/back problems are seperate variables and do not neccessarily go hand-in-hand.

Save the Baloneys for Brian to use.

MORTADELLA.

listen dude, I know for a fact that that finishing in that fashion will trash your back. I have a good friend who performs back surgeries and I have also been seeing a chiro for 5 years. They have both told me that the way Jack finished is death to the spine, period. But don't let that stop you, tear yourself up. And since when do have to be Brian to say "Baloney", WTF is that??? Some sort of "baloney" mandate?

Also, whats up w/ that picture of the guy setting himself on fire in Vietnam? That's pretty disturbing man.....might want to rethink that one.

 

[niblick1]

the counter fall probably helps drop the hands into the slot, but educating them to aim 1 yard right is even more important.

I'm working with a mirror this winter to make sure the shaft is bisecting my rt forearm when the left arm is parallel to the ground,

every good ball striker is in this position prior to release....

So the perspective for each of those photos varies significantly from the other. Think about where the camera was for the Sergio photo versus where it was for the Trevino photo. Very different camera position, right? So if you had footage of all of the players from the same perspective, would the clubshaft still bisect the arm in the same place? I don't think so. In other words, the photos would show MUCH more variance if you standardized the perspective.

Why would you worry about trying to copy a certain position unless you can understand the functional reason for the position? in other words, function should dictate form. Copying a form and posing in some position may actually hurt performance if there is not a functional reason to be in the position. Trying to get to a certain position without a functional reason that such a position helps your pattern is a form of magical or superstitious thinking.

 

[fanofSnead]

[

"Why would you worry about trying to copy a certain position unless you can understand the functional reason for the position? in other words, function should dictate form. Copying a form and posing in some position may actually hurt performance if there is not a functional reason to be in the position. Trying to get to a certain position without a functional reason that such a position helps your pattern is a form of magical or superstitious thinking."[/QUOTE]

Well number one, Im not "worrying" about the position. I worry about losing my job, the economy, or my son arriving home safely after a bad snow storm. This is just golf...

A "functional reason"? How about it being just a benchmark position in the course of practicing in front of a mirror, in fact it's hard for things to go too wrong if you are in this position pre-impact, but not an end all to be all position ok? I don't walk around all day with a club shaft bisecting my forearm.....jeeez

 

[Brian Manzella]

A "functional reason"? How about it being just a benchmark position in the course of practicing in front of a mirror, in fact it's hard for things to go too wrong if you are in this position pre-impact, but not an end all to be all position ok? I don't walk around all day with a club shaft bisecting my forearm.....jeeez

Golf Death for the wrong golfer.

That's why.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Fan of snead, you are gettin a little pounced on, I know. But take it the right way. We all are getting on your case because there are some people here that don't want you to spend anymore time than you already have on a position that for the most part comes naturally for the ones who do it. Most people who try to get into UJT wont be maxed like those pictures and will prob end up alittle punch elbow. I for one know how killer the old 'line it up" with the right forearm can be to your game, that's all.

But as with everything, if it helps, go for it.

 

[birdie_man]

listen dude, I know for a fact that that finishing in that fashion will trash your back. I have a good friend who performs back surgeries and I have also been seeing a chiro for 5 years. They have both told me that the way Jack finished is death to the spine, period. But don't let that stop you, tear yourself up. And since when do have to be Brian to say "Baloney", WTF is that??? Some sort of "baloney" mandate?

Also, whats up w/ that picture of the guy setting himself on fire in Vietnam? That's pretty disturbing man.....might want to rethink that one.

Hey I don't dispute a reverse C being not a great thing for you and I never did dispute it.

I disputed it being always associated with a TSP downswing.

Thanks but my back is fine. I don't have to worry about it much anyway, even though my downswing IS on the TSP.

Actually I will mind my back. But not because of a reverse C that I don't have. Maybe I am just a Superior Athlete.

I guess you can say Baloney. I may continue to use Mortadella...

The picture is on an album cover. I like the album so I put it as my avatar. You should check it out- Rage Against The Machine!!! Better than GWAR!

Hope your back gets better. (honestly) Injuries are no good. I wouldn't even wish a knee injury on Tiger Woods!

Snead was a good golfer.

 

[birdie_man]

"Why would you worry about trying to copy a certain position unless you can understand the functional reason for the position? in other words, function should dictate form. Copying a form and posing in some position may actually hurt performance if there is not a functional reason to be in the position. Trying to get to a certain position without a functional reason that such a position helps your pattern is a form of magical or superstitious thinking."

Well number one, Im not "worrying" about the position. I worry about losing my job, the economy, or my son arriving home safely after a bad snow storm. This is just golf...

A "functional reason"? How about it being just a benchmark position in the course of practicing in front of a mirror, in fact it's hard for things to go too wrong if you are in this position pre-impact, but not an end all to be all position ok? I don't walk around all day with a club shaft bisecting my forearm.....jeeez

For the record I have nothing against the position BTW............other than trying overly to shoehorn a golf swing into it that is meant for something else.

Thats the only point I tried to make..........somehow we are a little carried away and now are debating a little. I didn't mean to go at you real firmly. (maybe it sounded like it cause I was writing succinctly) Who knows.

If I feel I need to make a point I probably will make that point, that's all.

Kevin's post is pretty good.