Video Answer from the back porch.....Tumble Drill + Aim primer

[niblick1]

How do you know he didn't try to lay it off like Sergio? That may just be what his effort to do so looked like. Remember, video can't show intent.
Furyk says his backswing feels like all the normal ones look.

Makes me think of when I finally figured out what the whole laying-off then tumble thing meant as a fix for the backing-up problem from the epic Sergio thread and spent a week working on it on the range trying to exaggerate the move. Then I asked a friend how much it looked like I was laying it off on on start of downswing - "a little or a lot?" His answer: "none, as in zero."

Great video, Brian.

 

[tongzilla]

Thanks for taking the time to do this video Brian. Btw, I noticed your spine angle straightens out a lot from release to impact, whereas the great tumblers on tour usually keep more of their spine angle from address during this period (e.g. hogan vs nicklaus). I'm guessing this is because of your intent to pull the stick out the ground to get the negative alpha/beta.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Thanks for taking the time to do this video Brian. Btw, I noticed your spine angle straightens out a lot from release to impact, whereas the great tumblers on tour usually keep more of their spine angle from address during this period (e.g. hogan vs nicklaus). I'm guessing this is because of your intent to pull the stick out the ground to get the negative alpha/beta.

I was sorta limited by the room to pose, but thanks for pointing that out. I tend to do it when posing and that needs to stop.

 

[spktho]

I hear what you are saying but it's easier said than done.The golf swing cannot seem difficult or complicated and many players find it difficult to permanently implement this move.There used to be a move called the "quarter turn" which is basically a clockwise 90 deg turn of the left forearm to start the downswing.I remember reading many people having a lot of difficulty getting the penny to drop with this move.

I just wonder what would have happened to Jack Nicklaus if a guru wanted him to lay it off like Sergio.Your swing has to work consistently under pressure and that swing is usually the one you are born with.You can tweak a swing but to radically change it's shape is near impossible.You might get good results at the range but the money is at the course.

Just as the others have said, I can't get it anywhere near Sergio. If I am understanding your "quarter turn" example, the move I feel is not rotating the left arm consciously at all.

Taking any change to the course is hard, especially with limited practice. It really is not a complicated move once you feel the clubhead weight and not try to overcome it at the start down. Hell of a lot easier for me than thinking about the swing "starting from the ground up" and "bump to the left with the hips" then "fire external rotation of the right hip", then use the "squat move"...etc. I can dissect the movements of the swing pretty easily, but when my focus goes into feeling the clubhead my ball striking improves.

 

[ekennedy]

I'm probably not the only person that noticed the tumble drill and aim primer video were done at the same time...coincidence?

Intention is so important.

A player's alignment can affect their ability to lay the shaft down in transition because they can't (or have ttrouble) squaring the face up to their "intended" target.

Sometimes its a worthwhile venture to hit balls into an open field without intention and just see what happens, develop a pattern and then aim accordingly.

 

[jbrunk]

For the record you can implement this change immediately. I did. I am doing almost exactly what Brian's vid says. I just needed someone to say 'get the shaft more horizontal!'

 

[ej20]

Makes me think of when I finally figured out what the whole laying-off then tumble thing meant as a fix for the backing-up problem from the epic Sergio thread and spent a week working on it on the range trying to exaggerate the move. Then I asked a friend how much it looked like I was laying it off on on start of downswing - "a little or a lot?" His answer: "none, as in zero."

Great video, Brian.

I suppose that was the point of my post.Imagine if you really did lay it off as much as Sergio as in for real,not feel.It would not just feel weird-it would feel downright absurd.

You're not exaggerating the move enough.If you think you are exaggerating it,exaggerate your exaggeration.Feel like your left elbow and butt end of the club point towards the sky as you start your downswing and you might come close.Good luck getting it natural.

 

[ZAP]

Holy eternity batman! It sure takes a long time to get to the ball. But the speed is there.

 

[ej20]

For the record you can implement this change immediately. I did. I am doing almost exactly what Brian's vid says. I just needed someone to say 'get the shaft more horizontal!'

I am guessing that your old swing is not that steepin transition.Sure,there are players who "naturally" have a reasonably on plane transition and getting them to lay it off a bit is much easier.

Probably easier to teach it to flexible youngsters as well.The greater your ROM,the less unnatural it would feel.

 

[spktho]

Holy eternity batman! It sure takes a long time to get to the ball. But the speed is there.

Told you so!

One the hardest things is to trust that the speed will be there. If you don't, back to steep.

 

[niblick1]

I suppose that was the point of my post.Imagine if you really did lay it off as much as Sergio as in for real,not feel.It would not just feel weird-it would feel downright absurd.

You're not exaggerating the move enough.If you think you are exaggerating it,exaggerate your exaggeration.Feel like your left elbow and butt end of the club point towards the sky as you start your downswing and you might come close.Good luck getting it natural.

Did that on the range today. Then just tried to see if I could hit the the ball starting from a position with the club laid down behind me and clubface almost facing the sky. I could actually, weird. When i do that I automatically end up straightening up facing the target rather than the ball (as Brian says); the pivot becomes a necessary mechanism for squaring the clubface.

Man, I need a trip to N.O.

 

[dbl]

I have an old videotape of Faldo and LB called "Nick Faldo's Golf Course" and NF uses a beachball between his hands...and he describes and shows the drop from the top and says the ball gets a "re-rotation" (bringing the right palm to face the sky). I couldn't really understand it, but NOW...this is the same piece. :lightbulb:

 

[Kevin Shields]

I have an old videotape of Faldo and LB called "Nick Faldo's Golf Course" and NF uses a beachball between his hands...and he describes and shows the drop from the top and says the ball gets a "re-rotation" (bringing the right palm to face the sky). I couldn't really understand it, but NOW...this is the same piece. :lightbulb:

"Notice the rhythm and flow of Nicks golf swing."
"David likes it. Now lets take it to the golf course and see what happens."

 

[lia41985]

This man dropping quotes. He may not have liked school to study hard enough but ladies (gentleman, whatever) he learnt golf.

Nick Faldo taught him.

Not a bad teacher...



Currently taught by a not-so bad teacher...

 

[lia41985]

Btw...

If you can't coordinate your:

hand path...

with the rate of your arm swing (INCLUDING the rate of pronation/supination of both arms!!! i.e. layoff/reverse tumble to tumble)...

AND

the rate at which you lose forward bend

GOOD LUCK

 

[lia41985]

I was sorta limited by the room to pose, but thanks for pointing that out. I tend to do it when posing and that needs to stop.

ALWAYS LEARNING

 

[pokerlife]

Still no luck with the hips clearing but noticed something critical when i got home from the range..

I have been raising my waist on the backswing.. Grab a club and go to the top and let your waist raise just a little bit . Now bring the club back down super slow and notice how your body comes up out of the shot or is that just me ?

IF there is no raise up from the waist on the way back and you brings arms down slow everything seems to clear

 

[spktho]

Still no luck with the hips clearing but noticed something critical when i got home from the range..

I have been raising my waist on the backswing.. Grab a club and go to the top and let your waist raise just a little bit . Now bring the club back down super slow and notice how your body comes up out of the shot or is that just me ?

IF there is no raise up from the waist on the way back and you brings arms down slow everything seems to clear

Not just you, man. The stand up is another way to back up the shaft.

Work the vertical handpath with reverse tumble from the top and work the pelvis opening up in slow motion and when half way down, work the tumble. Do this in front of a mirror, if you can. You should feel what the body has to do with side bending and opening the pelvis to get to the ball.

Oh, and don't make the mistake I did and start standing closer to the ball. That just makes it harder to stop standing up.

 

[lia41985]

Lia, I'll give it a shot with some reasoning. The clubhead has come around to the ball at that point and is at or very near max velocity and is pulling with its maximum force. The force the golfer exerts on the club therefore has changed to being more normal or along the shaft nearing and past impact.

spktho,
Thank you for this, sir. I was just thinking about this very topic. I believe the negative beta force is what causes the lead wrist (left wrist in a righty golfer) to bend back on itself to and through impact. Like I said about the lead wrist back in December 2010:

Yes, but it's truly just a moment in time and part of a larger sequence of motions (without question). As such, trying to strive for a certain position (as seen in the moment in time), even as a "feeling", can obscure the proficiency with which the sequence of motions is performed.

Emphasis added by me.

I was using that term and idea before you, Michael Jacobs--just giving you a little shot to the shoulder

Must be because I just had lamb chops for dinner

PLEASE DO NOT EDIT THIS POST AS I MEAN NO HARM. PLEASE.

 

[lia41985]

That just makes it harder to stop standing up.

Correct, it seems. It may just necessitate the motion. Plus, if you do it that way: good luck with the longer clubs (i.e. VSP issues then causing other Trackman/Flightscope measured data point issues).