villegas and holmes, the "holding the umbrella" backswing

[niblick1]

So Villegas and J.B. Holmes each have, on iron swings, a backswing that goes back to the "hold the umbrella" position (and rarely past that point) that Brian talks about with respect to Nicklaus, they both let the swing go a little further on swings with drivers and fairway woods, they both are very strong (maybe could bench about 5x that of the average golfer?), they both hit the ball a very long way even by PGA standards, they both have somewhat SD-ish takeaways, and Villegas is much less open on a swing with irons than a typical PGA player.

So what's the deal with this shorter backswing and their patterns? Does the quiet, paused, "hold the umbrella" top-of-backswing gives them something to pull against hard with their left sides in the downswing or something to make their transitions slower and more powerful? What patterns does this work well for? Nicklaus did this in his backswing but let the club fall more to the target side at the top, right? Do you need to be able to bench 350 or be some sort of freak of nature to use this effectively? It looks simpler than most patterns.

 

[tongzilla]

The Umbrella Pattern...one of my faves

So what's the deal with this shorter backswing and their patterns? Does the quiet, paused, "hold the umbrella" top-of-backswing gives them something to pull against hard with their left sides in the downswing or something to make their transitions slower and more powerful? What patterns does this work well for? Nicklaus did this in his backswing but let the club fall more to the target side at the top, right? Do you need to be able to bench 350 or be some sort of freak of nature to use this effectively? It looks simpler than most patterns.

You don't have to be super strong to make good use of this umbrella pattern. From my experience, the umbrella pattern will loose you distance if you have a full-sweep type release. But it goes very well with a little float loading. A lot of beginners will do this umbrella pattern naturally because they don't the idea of cocking the wrists. The key is the transition though...and you could do it with a pause (Villegas) or no pause (Nicklaus).

 

[thefuture37]

the umbrella pattern will loose you distance

what is "loose" distance?

 

[jbrunk]

Grammar Police

what is "loose" distance?

Lose, as in 'to lose distance'.........have less of, to diminish or reduce.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

maybe could bench about 5x that of the average golfer

You have been victimized by TV saying how strong they are; they couldn't bench 5x the average golfer. Any grown man should be able to bench at least once 100lbs, so you are telling me they bench 500lbs? Come'on....

 

[jimmyt]

By weight lifting standards you are considered strong if you can bench press your body weight. Carmello weighs 170lbs. I am sure he can bench his weight.

The key to having weight training in your workout program is that you stretch the muscles that you have just worked out. I saw in an interview that Carmello does just that.

Somehow you are to fixated on the amount of weight when that has nothing to do with how far he hits the ball.

JB looks strong enough but does not look like he is in the weight room nearly as much. Its those popeye forearms that he was born with.

Watch both players fire thier right hips after the completion of back swing and realy snap the kinetic chain.

 

[vjsinger]

By weight lifting standards you are considered strong if you can bench press your body weight. Carmello weighs 170lbs. I am sure he can bench his weight.

The key to having weight training in your workout program is that you stretch the muscles that you have just worked out. I saw in an interview that Carmello does just that.

Somehow you are to fixated on the amount of weight when that has nothing to do with how far he hits the ball.

JB looks strong enough but does not look like he is in the weight room nearly as much. Its those popeye forearms that he was born with.

Watch both players fire thier right hips after the completion of back swing and realy snap the kinetic chain.

I don't think strength is that much of a factor..I have a friend that weighs 135lbs and he looks like he weighs less than that. He bench presses next to nothing and has a clubhead speed of 130mph and easily carries the ball over 300 yards...strength just isnt that big of a deal. Stop watching Kostis and Faldo on TV.

 

[jimmyt]

I don't think strength is that much of a factor..I have a friend that weighs 135lbs and he looks like he weighs less than that. He bench presses next to nothing and has a clubhead speed of 130mph and easily carries the ball over 300 yards...strength just isnt that big of a deal. Stop watching Kostis and Faldo on TV.

I never said strength or weight lifting had anything to do with length. I was commenting in general regarding other peoples perceptions and making an observation on JB, besides I said the way he snapped his kinetic chain was responsible for his length.

Seems however that people that don't workout are the ones always saying you don't need to work out. Truth be told if you have a good golf swing, a well put together training regiment will only help not hurt.

We have entered a new era, your champions in the future will not resemble the golden bear ever again. That being said its true in all sports, the athletes of today look like the spend their time in the gym not in the bars, unless your Pacman jones or charles barkeley or mickey mantle. Think I hit all sports right......right

 

[niblick1]

You have been victimized by TV saying how strong they are; they couldn't bench 5x the average golfer. Any grown man should be able to bench at least once 100lbs, so you are telling me they bench 500lbs? Come'on....

Hey, Jim, you may not be seeing the same golfers on the range I'm seeing. A lot would have to work up to 80 lbs. But your point is well-taken among good golfers.

I was wondering what are the causes for the similarities is. Holmes may not be a work-out fiend, but he's very strong. Villegas may not be able to bench outlandish number, but he is very fit and very flexible.

Are they just both adding a lot of float load? Using a lot shaft lean? What caused these two long hitters to gravitate towards a somewhat similar backswing that looks a bit different for the current PGA Tour?

 

[tongzilla]

I don't think strength is that much of a factor..I have a friend that weighs 135lbs and he looks like he weighs less than that. He bench presses next to nothing and has a clubhead speed of 130mph and easily carries the ball over 300 yards...strength just isnt that big of a deal. Stop watching Kostis and Faldo on TV.

I want to see your friend's swing.

 

[Steve Greffen]

don't think strength is that much of a factor..I have a friend that weighs 135lbs and he looks like he weighs less than that. He bench presses next to nothing and has a clubhead speed of 130mph and easily carries the ball over 300 yards...strength just isnt that big of a deal.

His monstrous distance has always belied his size - which now is 5-foot-11, 155 pounds.

"He is deceptively strong," said Leadbetter, who attributes Howell's enormous length to a clubhead speed in the 120-125 mph range generated by a wide stance, perfect mechanics and precise rhythm and timing.

Howell said he doesn't get enough credit for his strength. His maximum bench press in college was 225 pounds, and he once leg-pressed 1,000 pounds, though he pulled two muscles in his rear in the process

From an SI article talking about Charles Howell. Don't know about that 130 MPH clubhead swing there VJ?? Unless he is on the tour playing these guys all the time. Of course he could have a low smash factor! With a 1.45 he would have a ball speed of 188!

Anyway I do agree that you don't need to be overally strong as possible to bomb it but a combination of strength and flexibility is very helpful.

 

[Bigwill]

From an SI article talking about Charles Howell. Don't know about that 130 MPH clubhead swing there VJ?? Unless he is on the tour playing these guys all the time. Of course he could have a low smash factor! With a 1.45 he would have a ball speed of 188!

What does high swing speed have to do with tour-level playing ability? Especially nowadays? Swing speed is swing speed. Extreme length dosen't guarantee high level golf, and it dosen't take a high level golfer to generate a lot of clubhead speed.

I had a guy call me a liar before because I told him I'd never broken a hundred (at the time), because of the way I was hitting the ball. As a matter of fact, whenever I've played, I've always been the longest, and the worst, of the group. Length can definitely help scoring, but you don't have to be good to be long.

(BTW, this isn't an attack on you, Bolt. Just a pet peeve of mine when someone's length is questioned just because they're some random guy. I've been itching to say something like this for a minute).

 

[Steve Greffen]

(BTW, this isn't an attack on you, Bolt. Just a pet peeve of mine when someone's length is questioned just because they're some random guy. I've been itching to say something like this for a minute).

Ha ha, didn't take it as an attack and my post was not an attack on VJ either, I just thought he may have been exaggerating a little on the 130 mile an hour clubhead speed! Your right about some amateurs (not even long drive specialists) who only care about those numbers and swing to the hilt to get there. (and the balls don't usually go that straight!)

 

[vjsinger]

Swing Speed doesn't matter...Read the Forum

What does high swing speed have to do with tour-level playing ability? Especially nowadays? Swing speed is swing speed. Extreme length dosen't guarantee high level golf, and it dosen't take a high level golfer to generate a lot of clubhead speed.

I had a guy call me a liar before because I told him I'd never broken a hundred (at the time), because of the way I was hitting the ball. As a matter of fact, whenever I've played, I've always been the longest, and the worst, of the group. Length can definitely help scoring, but you don't have to be good to be long.

(BTW, this isn't an attack on you, Bolt. Just a pet peeve of mine when someone's length is questioned just because they're some random guy. I've been itching to say something like this for a minute).

Totally agree. I just started playing a couple of months ago and I can swing the head fast. Alot of people can swing the club fast...who cares. The friend I referred to does swing it that fast..I've seen the numbers on a swing speed radar. Now, I know that is an estimated number, but I've seen it. One ball went straight down the pipe, he flew it over the range net about 300 away..while the next one flew over the range net to the right side of the range(a soft cut bannana ball) The guy probably can't break 100..I don't know because he's never played 18 holes. The point is IMO brute strength doesn't matter that much. That's all I said, period...I don't really have any other opinions on it, because I just don't know that much about golf. I know what I've seen and that's it. I don't know why he generates so much speed for such a small guy..I guess his body moves fast. I'll ask my friend when the weather gets warm if he won't mind if I film his swing, if he even plays golf this year, then you guys can check it out. But, I'd appreciate a little more courtesy(Bolt) by not flat out calling me a liar.

 

[Steve Greffen]

Okay I won't flat out call you a liar...wait I didn't. Sorry if you took offense not supposed to, like you have said you are new to the game so I thought you might have like I said "exaggerated" the number.

I would like to see the swing though, it would be interesting to see where a small guy (light anyways) generates that much clubhead speed.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

My one friend is 5'10", 140lbs (at his peak), and swings close to 120 when he wants too. The reality is some people have it and some people don't. I'm sure it has something to do with genetics.

 

[dashfan87]

My one friend is 5'10", 140lbs (at his peak), and swings close to 120 when he wants too. The reality is some people have it and some people don't. I'm sure it has something to do with genetics.

Indeed, I went golfing with a guy and his son on the course staff my dad works at... this kid was 5'9" and weighed probably a buck forty.... he drove the 9th hole, par 4 360 yards (i ended up maybe 80 yards out)... amazing... never played with anyone close to his length.
I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it with my own 2 eyes.
btw, he said he hadn't touched his clubs in 6 months, and he ended up shooting a 75, 2 under on the back 9, to my 81.... fun day, we were back and forth all day, till about 5 holes left, then he got his groove back.

some people just have it... what a waist....

 

[jimmyt]

Just as there are very few people who can bench thier body weight, I believe there are just as few people who can swing the club at 130 mph. Other than the long drivers, not many tour pros swing that hard. Average tour is IMO about 115mph.

Its all about genetics, fast twich muscles.

We all golf with people who are long, but I have been around this game a long time and 130 is a rareity, Im sorry. I golf with a guy who is routinely 20 yards longer than me and no way is he near 130. My club head speed tops is 115mph, which means I average, between 107-115. This guy is consistently over 300 and Jim K you can do the math, but I will bet he is not anywhere near 130mph.

Isnt that kind of club head speed the holy grail!!!!!!!

 

[Bigwill]

Ha ha, didn't take it as an attack and my post was not an attack on VJ either, I just thought he may have been exaggerating a little on the 130 mile an hour clubhead speed! Your right about some amateurs (not even long drive specialists) who only care about those numbers and swing to the hilt to get there. (and the balls don't usually go that straight!)

That definitely used to be me. Everything used to be all out. Now I have to really make a conscious effort to swing that hard. Not that I think anything's wrong with it

 

[Bigwill]

I personally don't believe that strength has nothing to do with increasing length. What I do think is that the smaller or "weaker" you are, the more you have to rely on technique in order to be a long hitter; the stronger or more athletic you are, the more you can get away with less than perfect distance-creating technique; that's how big-hitting hackers are made. If you have adequate flexibility, the right strength increase is an asset to increasing length.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater by believing that strength is irrelevant, or that being stronger won't help at all, when it comes to increasing length.