Watching Tiger @ Memorial Skins game today
- Thread starter Jim Kobylinski
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Please feel free to post them. I am MORE than willing to read/watch it.
birly-shirly
New
Ringer - from your earlier post, I thought you would already agree with MGranato and Jim. When you said:
Your first 2 sentences are, as I understand things, absolutely correct. Spin is the result of path, relative to face angle. This applies to sidespin and equally to backspin.
But this doesn't lead to your conclusions that hitting up will reduce backspin, unless you make an assumption that dynamic loft remains the same when you move to a more positive angle of attack, which is the same thing as saying that spin loft is reduced. I believe that most people, if they adjust to a more upwards attack on the ball, will present more or less the same amount of loft relative to their angle of attack. In other words, same spin loft but more loft. Spin will remain consistent and the ball will launch higher.
Having said all that, I think Brian posted on here that his preferred route to maxing out driving distance and spin involves an upwards angle of attack combined with more shaft lean to reduce spin loft, without necessarily changing driver loft specs. So it can be done, although I think it's a 2 stage process and not as simple as just learning to hit "up".
Your first 2 sentences are, as I understand things, absolutely correct. Spin is the result of path, relative to face angle. This applies to sidespin and equally to backspin.
But this doesn't lead to your conclusions that hitting up will reduce backspin, unless you make an assumption that dynamic loft remains the same when you move to a more positive angle of attack, which is the same thing as saying that spin loft is reduced. I believe that most people, if they adjust to a more upwards attack on the ball, will present more or less the same amount of loft relative to their angle of attack. In other words, same spin loft but more loft. Spin will remain consistent and the ball will launch higher.
Having said all that, I think Brian posted on here that his preferred route to maxing out driving distance and spin involves an upwards angle of attack combined with more shaft lean to reduce spin loft, without necessarily changing driver loft specs. So it can be done, although I think it's a 2 stage process and not as simple as just learning to hit "up".
mgranato
New
A few remarks from Wishon...
"For each degree of loft, based on about 100mph head speed, you are looking at about a 280-300rpm change in spin. CG is much tougher to quantify because you have to declare a distance that the CG is below the CG of the ball and you have to qualify the angle of attack as well as speed of the head coming into the ball.
It's been a long time since I looked at that, but without that info close at hand and trying to think off the top of my head, I think I remember this being well less than 100rpm spin change at a CG head to CG ball difference of 1/4" (6mm). But your question just put another thing on the "to do" list when we get spring weather to start doing hit testing again!!"
"The later the golfer unhinges the wrist cock angle on the downswing, the more the shaft could achieve a forward bending just before impact. If the shaft arrives at impact in a forward bending position, that bending of the shaft will have tilted the head into a higher loft position at the moment of impact. HIgher dynamic loft at impact means a higher launch angle and with it, more spin.
The farther back the CG in the head, the more the shaft could bend forward at impact, and with it, the more the dynamic loft is increased on the head. And from that, the more the dynamic loft, the higher the launch angle and greater the spin. For a forward CG location, the forward bending of the shaft is reduced, and with it, there will be less of a dynamic loft increase on the head there will be, which means a lower launch angle with a little less spin."
"The primary way that high launch and low spin is accomplished is with an upward angle of attack as DRollins said. This is precisely how the long drive competitors can use a head with 5-6 degs and still generate a launch angle of 11-12 degs. The clubhead has to have passed its low point in the swing before impact and is thus traveling on an upward plane into the ball to get the launch angle to be higher than the loft of the head. Thus when you have an upward angle of attack contributing to a lot of the launch angle, then you can use less loft and when you do that, the spin automatically goes down from the lower loft. ."
A few from Tuxen...
"Optimizing driving distance is a question of high ball speed, high launch angle and low spin rate. But you can, in general, not increase your launch angle without also increasing the spin rate. So the fundamental
question was: What determines what spin rate/launch angle
combination can be obtained? It turns out that for a well hit shot, attack angle is the primary parameter dictating what combinations of launch angle /spin rate are obtainable for a given player."
"Attack angle, together with club head speed, are the individual swing parameters which dictate the dynamic loft (loft of club at impact) your driver should accomplish. If you have a 90 mph club head speed with an attack angle of -5 degrees (hitting down on the ball), your optimal launch angle/spin rate is around 10 degrees and 3100 rpm. This would typically require a relatively high lofted driver (around 13-15 degrees) to achieve this. On the other hand, if your attack angle is +5 degrees (hitting up on the ball) with the same 90 mph club head speed, your optimal launch angle/spin rate is around 16 degrees and 2200 rpm, but this would require a relatively
low lofted driver (around 9-10 degrees) to achieve this. Significantly,
this last combination will carry the ball almost 30 yards further than the -5 degrees negative attack angle numbers."
"It turns out that if you hit down or up on the ball with the same club, the spin rate will be more or less identical if you impact the ball on the same spot on the face. This is in contradiction to the myth saying that hitting down on the ball increases the spin rate."
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Wher da at? Wher da at? Wher da at?
"It turns out that if you hit down or up on the ball with the same club, the spin rate will be more or less identical if you impact the ball on the same spot on the face. This is in contradiction to the myth saying that hitting down on the ball increases the spin rate."
Yeah...but...One little problem with that—the LAUNCH ANGLE!!!!!!!
It is all about the LAUNCH ANGLE!!!!
YOU HAVE TO HIT UP ON IT!!!!
Here we go...
10° lofted driver, hit down 2°, no shaft lean/sweetspot strike—so 10° of dynamic loft, 8° of spin loft.
That's really low, and will produce low spin.
Great!
Right?
Ah...
Not so fast...
The LAUNCH ANGLE on that example would be about 6.5°.
Total and complete UNUSABLE JUNK!!!
So....
This guy would—at let's say Tiger's swing speed of 120ish—would need to have a 10° driver with backward shaft lean of 2° & a sweetspot strike (12° of dynamic loft), and hit up 4° to get the same 8° of spin loft at a usable 10ish° launch angle.
Get it?
Of course, for simplicity sake, I left out forward shaft kick, and hitting the ball higher or lower on the face.
So, there is a way that I guy could ADD LOFT to his driver, and spin it less.
How?
Hitting up with MORE FORWARD LEAN.
Which to me, is easier.
Do the math, bro.
"It turns out that if you hit down or up on the ball with the same club, the spin rate will be more or less identical if you impact the ball on the same spot on the face. This is in contradiction to the myth saying that hitting down on the ball increases the spin rate."
Yeah...but...One little problem with that—the LAUNCH ANGLE!!!!!!!
It is all about the LAUNCH ANGLE!!!!
YOU HAVE TO HIT UP ON IT!!!!
Here we go...
10° lofted driver, hit down 2°, no shaft lean/sweetspot strike—so 10° of dynamic loft, 8° of spin loft.
That's really low, and will produce low spin.
Great!
Right?
Ah...
Not so fast...
The LAUNCH ANGLE on that example would be about 6.5°.
Total and complete UNUSABLE JUNK!!!
So....
This guy would—at let's say Tiger's swing speed of 120ish—would need to have a 10° driver with backward shaft lean of 2° & a sweetspot strike (12° of dynamic loft), and hit up 4° to get the same 8° of spin loft at a usable 10ish° launch angle.
Get it?
Of course, for simplicity sake, I left out forward shaft kick, and hitting the ball higher or lower on the face.
So, there is a way that I guy could ADD LOFT to his driver, and spin it less.
How?
Hitting up with MORE FORWARD LEAN.
Which to me, is easier.
Do the math, bro.
mgranato
New
However...
All your doing in that scenario is adding loft so you can take loft away. Obviously an option. There is also a way a guy could remove loft and spin it more.
The swing (shaft lean in this case) is always the ultimate arbitrator of the resultant spin put on the ball. A 10* head will have X amount of spin for a given swing speed at 0* AoA. It will always be more than a 9* head, all else being equal. Now, remove 2.5* from the 10* head with forward shaft lean - the discussion went form apples to apples to apples to bananas.
From a fitting POV, the scenario of adding loft to the head to have it "removed" by a more forward leaning shaft is usually only done if the more forward lean is already present.
All your doing in that scenario is adding loft so you can take loft away. Obviously an option. There is also a way a guy could remove loft and spin it more.
The swing (shaft lean in this case) is always the ultimate arbitrator of the resultant spin put on the ball. A 10* head will have X amount of spin for a given swing speed at 0* AoA. It will always be more than a 9* head, all else being equal. Now, remove 2.5* from the 10* head with forward shaft lean - the discussion went form apples to apples to apples to bananas.
From a fitting POV, the scenario of adding loft to the head to have it "removed" by a more forward leaning shaft is usually only done if the more forward lean is already present.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
not correct, please search and/or do some research. plenty of stuff on this site.
jpvegas1
New
Tiger working on own swing using Haney's Principles
Saw an interview with Tiger about working on his swing by himself and Nicklaus for one thinks this is a good idea, ie. get more ownership of of your swing.
Unfortunately (at least from my point of view) Tiger said he is trying to work on his swing using Haney's swing method and principles. He said he is going back to basics of what Hank and him worked on and try to retrace his steps.
Saw an interview with Tiger about working on his swing by himself and Nicklaus for one thinks this is a good idea, ie. get more ownership of of your swing.
Unfortunately (at least from my point of view) Tiger said he is trying to work on his swing using Haney's swing method and principles. He said he is going back to basics of what Hank and him worked on and try to retrace his steps.
Richie3Jack
New
I talked about this on my blog, essentially stating that if I were to make a 25 minute trip and pay about $4 in tolls to Isleworth to see Tiger, I would basically go over the D-Plane with him, take some questions from him and give my thoughts and basically point to how does this control the path, face and low point.
That way he could 'dig it out of the dirt' and hopefully 'own his swing', but do it at a much faster rate and do it correctly.
It appears to me that Tiger has no idea of how attack angle effects the path and I wouldn't be shocked if he thought attack angle and VSP were the same thing. Most golfers do.
Understanding D-Plane debunks a lot of what HH says and explains the reason why HH's swing caused so many problems for his ballstriking.
3JACK
texagjosh
New
I thought it was kinda decided already that this was the best way to go with the big stick.
Faldo talks about it bit in this video from Trackman's site, with Trackman data to prove it:
TrackMan - Media
Do you really think I don't research? Common Jim, I would appreciate a bit more respect.
westy
New
Wow.
I would assume that trackman has it all right in terms of language and definitions.
Of course ass-ump-tions got us to where we are now....
mgranato
New
The highlighted part is the only thing I would amend. Can be +2* for a driver. This totally depends on how late of a release the player has. The later the release the closer to the 2* it will be. An early release will add practically nothing to the loft.
westy
New
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Corrected Formula
Dynamic Loft = Actual Measured Static Loft of the club + Forward/Backward Lean + bend in the shaft shaft (typical +2° for a driver) + where it strikes on the face (adds loft high on the face, subtracts low on the face).
Dynamic Loft = Actual Measured Static Loft of the club + Forward/Backward Lean + bend in the shaft shaft (typical +2° for a driver) + where it strikes on the face (adds loft high on the face, subtracts low on the face).
The way I read it, dynamic loft definition has nothing to do with angle of attack.
Trackman data report DEFINES dynamic loft as:
The dynamic or effective loft of the club at the point of impact on the club face – calculated relative to vertical.
In the notes:
As a rule of thumb the Dynamic Loft = Static Loft + Attack Angle + adjusted for the impact of the bended shaft (typical +2° for a driver)
To me this rule of thumb is not an accurate definition. I've understood from Brian has statements that you can control forward lean and AoA independently.
Maybe if you change just AoA with basically the same swing pattern, then the rule of thumb applies? Or at least AoA and forward lean must move together for it to work.
Edit: I guess this last one applies to the statement that changing AoA does not change spin(loft), which would mean that AoA and forward lean move together and could not be controlled independently, which is not necessarily true if you can do the right changes in the swing pattern.
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