What can you say about this swing from these #s?

[sullie]

Hello all. Great place you have here as I discovered it while stumbling around on Google looking for information on Trackman interpretations.

I went to get fit for some irons the other day after taking some time off from the game. I gave my old set of clubs to a relative as I got caught up in work and did not see my free time increasing for the foreseeable future so I went into this fitting with a demo 6 iron specs of 30/62/D2/37.25/S300.

Here is the scan of the first shot I hit, but this demo club has been inconsistent and doesn't feel good to me however the rest of the swing numbers were very similar to this first one.

Scan-110214-0001.jpg picture by sullie31 - Photobucket

The fitter made some recommendations, but I have a few doubts and would like to get a second opinion or two. Are there any conclusions you can draw about my swing from these numbers and secondly based on the swing and numbers would it be possible to recommend general specs for an iron set?

 

[Richie3Jack]

Hmm, let’s see:

Clubhead speed – 92.0 mph

That’s right on the PGA Tour average.

Attack Angle….-5.1*

PGA Tour average is -4.1* with a 6-iron. So a little steep, probably resulting in some lower shots. Made need a higher launch shaft, like a KBS or Project X. In order to square up the path, you’ll need an HSP (the bottom arc of the swing), pointing about -2 to -3* left of the target.

HSP …0.8*

Your HSP is pointing more or less at the target. So an underplane move with the swing causing the path to go inside-to-out


Path……3.4*

I’d probably want this closer to 2* or so, but you can play a nice draw with this path

Face Angle….1.2*

Should be a nice push-draw.

Spin Axis....-2.7

Yep, that's a hook spin axis


Ball Speed 127.6

PGA Tour average is 127. So you’re right on average.

Personally I think your ball position is probably a little too far back which causes the draw and the low trajectory. Ball position a little more forward would probably equate to a little higher and straighter shots.

Max Height 39.9

That’s odd, PGA Tour average is 30 and you have a steeper attack angle. My guess is that the equipment and ball may be throwing this off. Especially if you’re using a range ball.

Again, looks like a pretty good swing because you generate plenty of speed. For a straighter shot, ball position probably needs to go a little forward. Tough to tell about clubfitting until they see your swing, but from what I’ve observed most PGA Tour players use X100 shafts or that equivalent and you have PGA Tour type speed. But again, tough to be definitive without seeing your swing.






3JACK

 

[Jon Hardesty]

Oh...what a fun game we all could play, here goes! How about if some of the forum members could put up their Trackman numbers and then for a day or two we could all guess what their swing would look like. Also, maybe even guess about club specs. and ball position. Then the forum member would have to be willing to put up their swing from down the line and face on (need quality camera positions) so that we could see who was right and maybe even why. Just a thought...maybe i'm crazy!

 

[softconsult]

What I don't get is this. Are you saying the fitting consisted of hitting one demo 6 iron? Interchangeable shafts and heads are now the norm in fitting carts. If you are serious about getting it right, you should seek out a really top notch place. There are a lot of variables.

 

[GPM1985]

Oh...what a fun game we all could play, here goes! How about if some of the forum members could put up their Trackman numbers and then for a day or two we could all guess what their swing would look like. Also, maybe even guess about club specs. and ball position. Then the forum member would have to be willing to put up their swing from down the line and face on (need quality camera positions) so that we could see who was right and maybe even why. Just a thought...maybe i'm crazy!

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. Either way, that was a very funny post.

 

[Jon Hardesty]

what? I wasn't trying to be funny! I am serious...who thinks this is a bad idea and why? I am completely serious. Lets have some fun and learn something in the process! Maybe what I am asking can be done and maybe it can't, but I would like to find out...

 

[cwdlaw223]

What does the "62" stand for in the following: 30/62/D2/37.25/S300

I figured out the other numbers, but I can't figure out that one.

 

[Jon Hardesty]

lie angle?

 

[softconsult]

I am only sounding a note of caution here. If I was going to get fitted for irons, and I was looking at Ping, then I would be finding a place that had the full Ping Fitting cart and Ping's n-Flight System. I would also want a portion of the fitting to take place outdoors hitting off of real grass.

Just my opinion.

 

[Frans@France]

The fitter wanted me to play the KBS stiff like you mentioned. The lighter weight increased the swing speed up to around 95 or so but the spin, max height, launch angle and almost everything else stayed the same..............
He also wanted me to play 2.5 degree upright based on the lie board. This was with a Ping s56 head that I thought were really hard to bend and needed heat and hammer but apparently he was able to manage this with his machine.....
The 2.5 upright also makes sense with the vertical swing plane so upright I guess, 63 or so compared to a normal of 60?

I'm lost. So you have a s300 and it lands around 0.0 yard left/right, why would you change anything? Why change to a more stiff club, what is there to gain besides fatigue? Why would you ever bend 2.5 degree when the shot lands 0.0 left/right? Do you hate those shots and are looking for some more thrills in your golfing live

Besides all that I agree with John :

Oh...what a fun game we all could play, here goes! How about if some of the forum members could put up their Trackman numbers and then for a day or two we could all guess what their swing would look like. Also, maybe even guess about club specs. and ball position. Just a thought...maybe i'm crazy!

 

[Kevin Shields]

What kind of balls were you using? This is a 6 iron, right? -5.1 AoA with 24.1 dynamic loft at 92 mph would produce much more spin than 5300 rpms unless you had face tape or were using a rock.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Well, there's no real need to gain clubhead speed. What's 3mph+ with a 6-iron going to do?

I do find it weird that the attack angle is steep, clubhead speed is high, and the ball flies pretty high.

I would avoid getting my lie angles +2.5* upright. Lie boards suck.




3JACK

 

[wulsy]

How do you guys view using lie to correct impact clubface alignment? Is it good practice in fitting, or bad?

 

[Richie3Jack]

I just have a problem with upright lie angles, which helped ruin my game for about 5 years...and that helped cause me to quit the game for about 8 years.

My feeling is that when you start getting upright with the lie angles, your swing will adjust over time with those lie angles. Case in point, for awhile in 2010 I was playing with lie angles about 6 to 7* flat. And I'm 6'4" tall. Yet, over time I was able to adjust to them and hit them dead square on the face consistently.

In fact, I think Bill McKinney (PGA pro on this forum) is doing something similar with his irons...very flat.

And now my lie angles are about standard, may 1-2* flat and I've adjusted to them nicely.

So if you go 2.5* upright, you will adjust to them. But so will your mis-hits as you will probably continue to miss shots off the toe eventually, even though your lie angle is more upright.

So then you'll want to get that corrected and the clubfitter will prescribe an even more upright lie angle or longer shafts.

Theoretically, one can swing extremely flat and 'be on plane' so the path is 0* at impact. But that's not really possible if you swing extremely upright...you'll come way over the top and the path will almost have to go left, or you can try to adjust and square up the path which can lead to even bigger disasters.

Lastly, lie boards lie. I have never seen somebody with my own eyes use a lie board and the fitter say 'you need to flatten your lie angles.' In almost every instance, the lie board says the golfer needs more upright clubs. I find that to be impossible to be true. Particularly if a golfer is working to improve their golf swing.

You're far better off using the 'line test' to figure out what lie angles work best for you.

And if you're working to improve your golf swing, I'd stay clear from upright lie angles.








3JACK

 

[mgranato]

I would quit the game before I spent the amount of time required to "adjust" to 6-7* flat lie angles.

The overwhelming majority of golfers want to enjoy a round or two on the weekend, and their idea of hitting balls is a pre-round warm up. It's important to fit these guys with what fits them at that point in time. It's also important for the fitter to understand what the goals of the player are. If the player is a range rat who's always working/changing his swing, then the clubs can be fit biased towards where he wants to be. Otherwise, my experience is that most guys will get more enjoyment from clubs that fit the swing they bring to you.

The loft/lie machine is a great invention, it is like a big eraser making not adjustment permanent.

 

[softconsult]

Here's another comment all the lines of your swing changing to fit the clubs.

When I saw Brian a couple of years ago, I was playing with Titleist 695 CB's, Project X 5.5, 2 up from Titleist standard lies, and 1/2" long (38.5" 5 iron). He commented that based on my divots, I might need to go more upright. Then on whim I decided to pick up a set of Titleist 735's, std length, std lie, DGS300. I played them all last year, and struck the ball more accurately. Of course, when I got the Project X set I thought they were just perfect too.

I still have the former set. I have since done side by side comparison's. The upright set feels positively strange. Like I'm forced to stand up. Pulling it left feels much more likely.

My next little project is to try Mike Jacobs suggestion for me, change to regular flex, KBS 5.0. I have another set of 735's. Going to try reshaft a couple of clubs, and then I have
plenty of time to really compare the shafts.

At some point I bought a Ping S56 demo 6 iron on e-Bay. I wanted to like it, but it just felt too light, both in weight and in swingweight.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I would quit the game before I spent the amount of time required to "adjust" to 6-7* flat lie angles.

It took me all of 1 week to make the adjustment. That being said, I had a better sense of what I was trying to do than your average golfer.

But that's the point...the adjustment will be made. Golfers tend to make that adjustment rather than keep hitting it crappy. The 'bad adjustments' are compensations. I'd rather steer clear from those because I can't rely on a compensation.

The overwhelming majority of golfers want to enjoy a round or two on the weekend, and their idea of hitting balls is a pre-round warm up. It's important to fit these guys with what fits them at that point in time.

I sorta agree and sorta disagree. I think this is where golf gets into trouble.

Obviously...there's a lot of golfers who just want a quick band-aid fix no matter what. They have no interest in golf outside of playing on the weekends and getting the ball airborne most of the time, enjoying the outdoors and getting out of the house. I mean, that is what golf is to them.

But, I do believe there are a lot of golfers...much more than the industry will ever recognize...that would be willing to put *some* work into their game if they believed it would work and make them much better. But because golf instruction has failed them and clubfitting has failed them in the past, they just do the occasional pre-round warmup and that's it. If they believed there was light at the end of the tunnel thru 1 hour of practice a week, they'd do it. Hell, they'd do 3+ hours of practice a week if they thought they could get down towards scratch in a year.

I recently had a long conversation with three of my friends who came down to visit and play golf about this. None of them are readers of mine (which is fine because I like to get their honest, unbiased opinion) and the conversation went along the lines of 'the problem with lessons is that at best you get a little better right after the lesson and a month afterward you're right back to where you were. Then if you go back to get another lesson, the pro tells you aren't doing what you went over in the previous lesson and you go over the same process again.'

And in essence, a golfer willing to pay extra money to get fit probably cares more than the industry thinks, especially with the state of the economy today. Otherwise they would just grab clubs off the rack because it would be cheaper.

I think there's a LOT of opportunity out there for golf instructors and clubmakers to reach a large chunk of the golfing population, but rarely does anybody actually make that effort. Gotta give Brian his credit, he markets towards that 90% of the golfing population as well as any other instructor on the planet.

also important for the fitter to understand what the goals of the player are

I agree. That's why I believe the general public that wants to get fitted is better off getting fitted by their instructor over some clubfitter who probably doesn't know jack squat about the golf swing and in particular, the customer's swing.

I firmly believe that today's clubfitting can be extremely dangerous to a golfer's game. And I believe that much of what I see, even from reputable clubfitters, is stuff that can make a golfer's game *worse* in a rather short period of time. I don't know of anybody willing to pay extra $$$ to get worse.








3JACK

 

[Frans@France]

Here is the scan from the lie board impact: Scan-110215-0001.jpg picture by sullie31 - Photobucket

So even though every quarter inch should be 1* up, I am most likely standard and everything after this point in the fitting was not worth a whole lot?

Because you only posted 1 shot I can not comment on the Lie board mark. It is impossible to read the mark without knowing the overall face angle and swing path. Just asked your fitter if he has his 34 pages usermanual for the lie board. If you get a weird look then he has no clue how to use the lie board.

Redo the lie test using a ball with a line and some tape on the face. Will provide much better results and more reliable.

 

[Plumloco99]

I just have a problem with upright lie angles, which helped ruin my game for about 5 years...and that helped cause me to quit the game for about 8 years.

My feeling is that when you start getting upright with the lie angles, your swing will adjust over time with those lie angles. Case in point, for awhile in 2010 I was playing with lie angles about 6 to 7* flat. And I'm 6'4" tall. Yet, over time I was able to adjust to them and hit them dead square on the face consistently.

In fact, I think Bill McKinney (PGA pro on this forum) is doing something similar with his irons...very flat.

And now my lie angles are about standard, may 1-2* flat and I've adjusted to them nicely.

So if you go 2.5* upright, you will adjust to them. But so will your mis-hits as you will probably continue to miss shots off the toe eventually, even though your lie angle is more upright.

So then you'll want to get that corrected and the clubfitter will prescribe an even more upright lie angle or longer shafts.

Theoretically, one can swing extremely flat and 'be on plane' so the path is 0* at impact. But that's not really possible if you swing extremely upright...you'll come way over the top and the path will almost have to go left, or you can try to adjust and square up the path which can lead to even bigger disasters.

Lastly, lie boards lie. I have never seen somebody with my own eyes use a lie board and the fitter say 'you need to flatten your lie angles.' In almost every instance, the lie board says the golfer needs more upright clubs. I find that to be impossible to be true. Particularly if a golfer is working to improve their golf swing.

You're far better off using the 'line test' to figure out what lie angles work best for you.

And if you're working to improve your golf swing, I'd stay clear from upright lie angles.3JACK

This post has me wanting to smash my computer. I purchased irons from Miles of Golf this past fall and now I want to bend all the clubs and cut down the shafts. Just trying to figure out why they would go plus 2 upright and plus 1 long.

 

[dbl]

MoG's page says they have Trackman...

No good for fitting....?