What does "underplane" really mean?

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niblick1

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I have watched all of Brian's video's multiple times, read the yellow book, spent untold time here learning, hit a lot of golf balls trying to see if I understand things here, read a large percentage of the posts here from the start of time, and I think I have a feel for a lot of different swing issues, but the one thing I consistently think I do not understand at all is being underplane/"Below Plane Syndrome."

When someone here says they have an ingrained underplane move or do something with the clubface or wrist to avoid being underplane - what are they doing and where? When is someone "underplane"' - anywhere on downswing? Under which plane (elbow plane, TSP)? Is it just getting below the impact plane (whatever one you use) and having to then adjust (get back up to plane) before impact to make decent impact?

Can someone explain?
 
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Slicer McGolf

Slicer McGolf

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I took video of a great junior player who had an immediate drop of the hands and arms at the start of the downswing. The shoulders and hips had not turned so the club was dropped too low, and maybe referred to as under plane.

The kid could play with a consistent draw, but hit it low and picked it right off the ground - almost thin. I think this move made him slow his hips down and ruin any hope of a Kin-link. The ball didn't fly too far but the game is played around the hole, right? He got upNdown from everywhere, even from a guy's foot. :D"Play it where it lies Happy"
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
You re right. Its a very vague concept. If you are TRULY under the plane you would always hit the ground first and that isnt the case with alot of underplaners because of the compensations they make like flipping and straightening up.

To make it easy on myself, I describe underplane as anytime (back or down) that the clubhead or sweetspot gets to the left of a straight line from the hands to the ball. The weight is always trying to line up with the hands so seeing as how you can play well from so many hands paths thats a good checkpoint for me. Note ** Right handed golfer from down the line view
 
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niblick1

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Ok, I think I am getting somewhere. You come in that shallow, I can see why you might be checking your lie angles every night, to paraphrase Michael Jacob's infamous BPS post. I guess I can see why you might need a last minute flip as well.

So is some "carry" and "shake the sugar" of NHA2 one of the antidotes?

Sweet spot issues with underplane I don't get.
 
tongzilla

tongzilla

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Surprisingly, lot of "underplaners" do not actually need to get steeper. They need to:

1) get a weaker grip (if it's not too weak already) and a more open clubface.
2) learn how to get the clubhead going left immediately after low point.
 
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BurnItUp

New member
tongzilla said:
Surprisingly, lot of "underplaners" do not actually need to get steeper. They need to:

1) get a weaker grip (if it's not too weak already) and a more open clubface.
2) learn how to get the clubhead going left immediately after low point.
Click to expand...

How do you make that out?
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
tongzilla said:
Surprisingly, lot of "underplaners" do not actually need to get steeper. They need to:

1) get a weaker grip (if it's not too weak already) and a more open clubface.
2) learn how to get the clubhead going left immediately after low point.
Click to expand...

I dont understand. Everyone's club goes left after low point no matter what.
 
Matt 4-L

Matt 4-L

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When I suffer from "BPS" I always end up with a swing path that is way to much inside out. I don't have any room to go left without either standing up or moving out in front of the ball and the ball flight ends up being a straight push or a low hook....I'm still interested in hearing your fix you gleamed from SD Kevin, you mentioned it in another thread.
 
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Robbohank

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niblick1 said:
Ok, I think I am getting somewhere. You come in that shallow, I can see why you might be checking your lie angles every night, to paraphrase Michael Jacob's infamous BPS post. I guess I can see why you might need a last minute flip as well.

So is some "carry" and "shake the sugar" of NHA2 one of the antidotes?

Sweet spot issues with underplane I don't get.
Click to expand...

Now I don't see that swing as underplane.... the butt end of the club is pointing at the plane baseline thru the downswing (at least it appears that way). I've always thought underplane meant the butt-end of the club would point "outside" the plane baseline from startdown into impact (on the dtl view). Something more like this:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnibiqFodMA[/media]


Robbo
 
K

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Matt F. said:
When I suffer from "BPS" I always end up with a swing path that is way to much inside out. I don't have any room to go left without either standing up or moving out in front of the ball and the ball flight ends up being a straight push or a low hook....I'm still interested in hearing your fix you gleamed from SD Kevin, you mentioned it in another thread.
Click to expand...

I know, I know. The more I tried to put it in words the more i realized I needed a video or Brian's grasp of the English language for help. It is crystal clear in my mind but i need to work on the explanation. I have a few college players going great with it so i know its not flukey. Lets just say for now its a comcombo of several Manz patterns with an emphasis on SD backswing and NHA downswing with some personalized components mixed in. Im going down to NO in early March. Maybe I can talk him into a thread or video with further explanations.
 
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wedgeplay

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Underneath

Watching the Mercedes Championship this weekend, I heard Nick Faldo comment that a player had got underneath it and hit a block on his tee shot.I knew "underneath it" ment under the plane.

Most golf instruction is to help the slicer.I'm sure Brian has sold a lot more copies of NSA than he has NHA.

Not much is written about BPS and that is why I come to this site and discount all other golf instruction sites and information.
 
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savydan

New
wedgeplay said:
Watching the Mercedes Championship this weekend, I heard Nick Faldo comment that a player had got underneath it and hit a block on his tee shot.I knew "underneath it" ment under the plane.

Most golf instruction is to help the slicer.I'm sure Brian has sold a lot more copies of NSA than he has NHA.

Not much is written about BPS and that is why I come to this site and discount all other golf instruction sites and information.
Click to expand...

Word of caution: Most TV analysts are commenting with the old ball flight laws in mind.
 
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wdking

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As the self proclaimed "King of BPS" let me try to explain how it relates to me. Forget about the D-plane for a moment. From down the line, righthander, you are standing on a roof, with the gutter being your target plane line, and the angle of the roof being your downswing plane (ala Manzella and Hogan's plane of glass). This roof angle, for me, is between the target plane line and the right turned shoulder plane. Underplane would be too much to the left of the roof angle, hence "under", and your club would approach from under the angle and towards the gutter too much from the inside of the target plane line and would swing out to the right of the gutter. IMO all kinds of scary shots are possible.
How does this happen? The causes could fill a Bible sized book.
The cure? That's why I'm a member of this forum, and I'm still looking for my cure.
BTW cmartingolf has a little product that may help, if you're underplane with his gadget, it's like Tin Cup at the range....someone could get killed.
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
wdking said:
As the self proclaimed "King of BPS" let me try to explain how it relates to me. Forget about the D-plane for a moment. From down the line, righthander, you are standing on a roof, with the gutter being your target plane line, and the angle of the roof being your downswing plane (ala Manzella and Hogan's plane of glass). This roof angle, for me, is between the target plane line and the right turned shoulder plane. Underplane would be too much to the left of the roof angle, hence "under", and your club would approach from under the angle and towards the gutter too much from the inside of the target plane line and would swing out to the right of the gutter. IMO all kinds of scary shots are possible.
How does this happen? The causes could fill a Bible sized book.
The cure? That's why I'm a member of this forum, and I'm still looking for my cure.
BTW cmartingolf has a little product that may help, if you're underplane with his gadget, it's like Tin Cup at the range....someone could get killed.
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What have you tried, wdking?
 
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wdking

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Kevin Shields said:
What have you tried, wdking?
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Hi Kevin:
I have posted on this issue before, and I recall you talking about hitting driver from the knees.
Currently, what seems to be working is a combination of practicing with the Manzella patented towel plane board, which I destroy post impact. Also, Brian had mentioned keeping the left (lead) shoulder lower longer, which to me equates to holding left side bend longer. I have never been a slicer, so forever I would play a high flip hook. In the past 4 or 5 years, I have been a push fader of the ball, with a noticeable loss in distance with the irons. I have always been a good driver and have an above average short game. Mike Jacobs, in one of his excellent videos (free of course) calls BPS the curse of the 6 or 7 handicap. I have worked with him and changed my swing to more of a NHA pattern, which was acceptable. Due to a crappy downswing pivot, my right hip would go towards the ball and I would have to drop the club below plane to "fit it in", and viola, high hooks and shanks are part of the foursome.
I am using a training club (called the Tour Striker) made by Martin Chuck right now, and it is pretty awesome. A flipper cannot hit this club without killing someone. To hit it solidly, my downswing feels are that the sweetspot is turning off the plane (rotating toward the ball) and that my right shoulder is on top of the ball at impact. Increasing tilt is a no no for me.
Sorry about the rambling, but I thought others may benefit.
Thanks
 
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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I thought I remember you talking about this before. I'll tell you what, keep those hands deep, the left arm inside as well and turn the face off the plane and you're on your way to curing this. BTW, The Tour Striker is a money training club.
 
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wdking

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Kevin Shields said:
I thought I remember you talking about this before. I'll tell you what, keep those hands deep, the left arm inside as well and turn the face off the plane and you're on your way to curing this. BTW, The Tour Striker is a money training club.
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Kevin:
Just explain, your feeling of course, deep hands and left arm inside.

Thanks
 
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