Could any one tell me why I and any golfer and pro lose their swing. I could be swinging really good for a while and then one bad swing leads to another and I feel like I never golfed before? I find it agin and lose it time after time and then I start trying different swings and end up with my same old swing.....joe
What makes some golfers "lose it"?
- Thread starter joeparr
- Start date
- Status
bts
New
coincidence
Simply because you and the majority of others don't really understand how the swing works, which usually leads to "coincidence".
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Ahh...nope.
I totally and completely disagree.
Most really good players (by 'really good' I mean 72 or better average score) have NO IDEA "how the swing works."
For that part, 99% of all golf teachers don't either.
But these "good players" often play good for their WHOLE LIFE. Harcourt Kemp, an older amateur palyer in Louisville, has no idea about TGM or anything golf-science wise, or couldn't tell you anything smart about ball-flight, but he can FLAT PLAY.
And he always could.
The 20 or so PGA Tour players I have worked with over my 25 years of teaching often knew less than zero.
Now, some "lost it" and some "didn't" but for crying out loud, there are TGM students on the PGA TOUR who are "supposed" to know what you think everyone should know, but these guys finished outside the top 80 on the money list, so how important could it be?
The fact is IS that PURE TALENT, nerves and all the things that make a PGA Tour player a David Toms and not a Mac O'Grady, have very VERY little to do with what they know.
Now, for what make golfer's lose it...
A little Manzella favorite:
"A Blind man comes to me for a lesson. He is walking "left" and can't go to the potty at night without waking his wife. I tell him to FEEL LIKE he he is crossing over a "heavy" right leg with a "quick and light" left leg. He walks straight. He is happy. He calls me and is VERY Happy. His wife is happy, because he doesn't knock over a lamp going to the bathroom.
The phone rings three months later, he is bumping into the right side of the room now, and needs a lesson."
Now before you answer, here is what "you" will say:
"Manzella is a Band-Aid teacher. Just teach him (the Blind Man) that he is tracing TWO straight plane lines with his lower legs. He need to do dowel drills with his toes while laying on his back in bed and trace the ceiling tiles. Or in his case, since he is blind, pretend to trace. He needs to know whether or not he is a hitter (someone who pushes his legs) or a swinger (someone who pulls his legs). He needs to learn to do a RCT--Right Calf Takeaway--so he can have a precise pivot of his hips and upper body. And, he needs to have his head precisely between his feet when he walks, but he can't move his head...."
I'll tell you what, you tell him all of that.
I just FIX HIM again, and each time, I will tighten the tolerences, and he and his wife will be happy.
You'll find the 1 of 100 blind man that wants to know everything and he'll be happy too.
But...
You missed one detail.
When I find the 1 of 100 blind man that wants to know everything (Like Tom Bartlett and Mike Finney), I'll tell them all of that too..
...except for the head precisely in the middle of the feet crap.
I totally and completely disagree.
Most really good players (by 'really good' I mean 72 or better average score) have NO IDEA "how the swing works."
For that part, 99% of all golf teachers don't either.
But these "good players" often play good for their WHOLE LIFE. Harcourt Kemp, an older amateur palyer in Louisville, has no idea about TGM or anything golf-science wise, or couldn't tell you anything smart about ball-flight, but he can FLAT PLAY.
And he always could.
The 20 or so PGA Tour players I have worked with over my 25 years of teaching often knew less than zero.
Now, some "lost it" and some "didn't" but for crying out loud, there are TGM students on the PGA TOUR who are "supposed" to know what you think everyone should know, but these guys finished outside the top 80 on the money list, so how important could it be?
The fact is IS that PURE TALENT, nerves and all the things that make a PGA Tour player a David Toms and not a Mac O'Grady, have very VERY little to do with what they know.
Now, for what make golfer's lose it...
A little Manzella favorite:
"A Blind man comes to me for a lesson. He is walking "left" and can't go to the potty at night without waking his wife. I tell him to FEEL LIKE he he is crossing over a "heavy" right leg with a "quick and light" left leg. He walks straight. He is happy. He calls me and is VERY Happy. His wife is happy, because he doesn't knock over a lamp going to the bathroom.
The phone rings three months later, he is bumping into the right side of the room now, and needs a lesson."
Now before you answer, here is what "you" will say:
"Manzella is a Band-Aid teacher. Just teach him (the Blind Man) that he is tracing TWO straight plane lines with his lower legs. He need to do dowel drills with his toes while laying on his back in bed and trace the ceiling tiles. Or in his case, since he is blind, pretend to trace. He needs to know whether or not he is a hitter (someone who pushes his legs) or a swinger (someone who pulls his legs). He needs to learn to do a RCT--Right Calf Takeaway--so he can have a precise pivot of his hips and upper body. And, he needs to have his head precisely between his feet when he walks, but he can't move his head...."
I'll tell you what, you tell him all of that.
I just FIX HIM again, and each time, I will tighten the tolerences, and he and his wife will be happy.
You'll find the 1 of 100 blind man that wants to know everything and he'll be happy too.
But...
You missed one detail.
When I find the 1 of 100 blind man that wants to know everything (Like Tom Bartlett and Mike Finney), I'll tell them all of that too..
...except for the head precisely in the middle of the feet crap.
Last edited:
birdie_man
New
When this question comes up I always think of Lag Pressure....
If you've got that ur usually hittin it ok and solid.....then you can straighten it out.
If I'm hittin it SOLID I always feel like I'm ok.....
When you start missin the sweetspot and thinnin and fattin and shankin and losing distance that's when the panic sets in....from what I can see.
The right hand seems to cause a lot of problems too....esp. when ur frustrated.
If you've got that ur usually hittin it ok and solid.....then you can straighten it out.
If I'm hittin it SOLID I always feel like I'm ok.....
When you start missin the sweetspot and thinnin and fattin and shankin and losing distance that's when the panic sets in....from what I can see.
The right hand seems to cause a lot of problems too....esp. when ur frustrated.
Brian...damn funny post!
And I agree. Those who know their swing by definitions and components can get on video and have a pretty good chance of finding "it" again. Those who don't must search for the "feel" of "it". In either case hitting small chips then pitches will usually bring "it" back.
But I think the important issue is defining what "it" is. Imo, "it" is control. The two areas of control would be 1) yourself and 2) the club.
If you can organize yourself to the point of a relaxed comfort you've taken care of #1.
If you can put your awareness into "feeling" the clubhead again you've taken care of #2.
I always crack up when guys buy a new set of clubs and go and play a career round. Back in the clubhouse singing the praises of their new clubs. Then a week or two later ready to bust each shaft they paid so dearly for.
When they first acquired the clubs they loved them! They loved the look of them, the feel of them, set them next to the bed and dreamt that night of going out and using them. Paid so much attention to them that they forgot what a terrible swing they had and just went out there and let them "do the work" for them. They worked so well they didn't even have to take their eye off the ball.
Went home, left them in the trunk and dreamt of winning the club championship. Who needs 'em........I'm great!!!
And I agree. Those who know their swing by definitions and components can get on video and have a pretty good chance of finding "it" again. Those who don't must search for the "feel" of "it". In either case hitting small chips then pitches will usually bring "it" back.
But I think the important issue is defining what "it" is. Imo, "it" is control. The two areas of control would be 1) yourself and 2) the club.
If you can organize yourself to the point of a relaxed comfort you've taken care of #1.
If you can put your awareness into "feeling" the clubhead again you've taken care of #2.
I always crack up when guys buy a new set of clubs and go and play a career round. Back in the clubhouse singing the praises of their new clubs. Then a week or two later ready to bust each shaft they paid so dearly for.
When they first acquired the clubs they loved them! They loved the look of them, the feel of them, set them next to the bed and dreamt that night of going out and using them. Paid so much attention to them that they forgot what a terrible swing they had and just went out there and let them "do the work" for them. They worked so well they didn't even have to take their eye off the ball.
Went home, left them in the trunk and dreamt of winning the club championship. Who needs 'em........I'm great!!!
shortgamer
New
I totally and completely disagree.
Most really good players (by 'really good' I mean 72 or better average score) have NO IDEA "how the swing works."
For that part, 99% of all golf teachers don't either.
But these "good players" often play good for their WHOLE LIFE. Harcourt Kemp, an older amateur palyer in Louisville, has no idea about TGM or anything golf-science wise, or couldn't tell you anything smart about ball-flight, but he can FLAT PLAY.
And he always could.
The 20 or so PGA Tour players I have worked with over my 25 years of teaching often knew less than zero.
Now, some "lost it" and some "didn't" but for crying out loud, there are TGM students on the PGA TOUR who are "supposed" to know what you think everyone should know, but these guys finished outside the top 80 on the money list, so how important could it be?
The fact is IS that PURE TALENT, nerves and all the things that make a PGA Tour player a David Toms and not a Mac O'Grady, have very VERY little to do with what they know.
Now, for what make golfer's lose it...
A little Manzella favorite:
"A Blind man comes to me for a lesson. He is walking "left" and can't go to the potty at night without waking his wife. I tell him to FEEL LIKE he he is crossing over a "heavy" right leg with a "quick and light" left leg. He walks straight. He is happy. He calls me and is VERY Happy. His wife is happy, because he doesn't knock over a lamp going to the bathroom.
The phone rings three months later, he is bumping into the right side of the room now, and needs a lesson."
Now before you answer, here is what "you" will say:
"Manzella is a Band-Aid teacher. Just teach him (the Blind Man) that he is tracing TWO straight plane lines with his lower legs. He need to do dowel drills with his toes while laying on his back in bed and trace the ceiling tiles. Or in his case, since he is blind, pretend to trace. He needs to know whether or not he is a hitter (someone who pushes his legs) or a swinger (someone who pulls his legs). He needs to learn to do a RCT--Right Calf Takeaway--so he can have a precise pivot of his hips and upper body. And, he needs to have his head precisely between his feet when he walks, but he can't move his head...."
I'll tell you what, you tell him all of that.
I just FIX HIM again, and each time, I will tighten the tolerences, and he and his wife will be happy.
You'll find the 1 of 100 blind man that wants to know everything and he'll be happy too.
But...
You missed one detail.
When I find the 1 of 100 blind man that wants to know everything (Like Tom Bartlett and Mike Finney), I'll tell them all of that too..
...except for the head precisely in the middle of the feet crap.
You had me laughing my ass off. Also liked the "hello ball" comment in building blocks I was watching again tonight-trying to get back to basicsBTW-great video that I don't hear much about?
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Hilarious Brian, hilarious!!!
shootin4par
New
how much secondary axis tilt should he have while tracing the imaginary plane lines with his toes?
A little Manzella favorite:
"A Blind man comes to me for a lesson. He is walking "left" and can't go to the potty at night without waking his wife. I tell him to FEEL LIKE he he is crossing over a "heavy" right leg with a "quick and light" left leg. He walks straight. He is happy. He calls me and is VERY Happy. His wife is happy, because he doesn't knock over a lamp going to the bathroom.
The phone rings three months later, he is bumping into the right side of the room now, and needs a lesson."
Now before you answer, here is what "you" will say:
"Manzella is a Band-Aid teacher. Just teach him (the Blind Man) that he is tracing TWO straight plane lines with his lower legs. He need to do dowel drills with his toes while laying on his back in bed and trace the ceiling tiles. Or in his case, since he is blind, pretend to trace. He needs to know whether or not he is a hitter (someone who pushes his legs) or a swinger (someone who pulls his legs). He needs to learn to do a RCT--Right Calf Takeaway--so he can have a precise pivot of his hips and upper body. And, he needs to have his head precisely between his feet when he walks, but he can't move his head...."
I'll tell you what, you tell him all of that.
I just FIX HIM again, and each time, I will tighten the tolerences, and he and his wife will be happy.
You'll find the 1 of 100 blind man that wants to know everything and he'll be happy too.
But...
You missed one detail.
When I find the 1 of 100 blind man that wants to know everything (Like Tom Bartlett and Mike Finney), I'll tell them all of that too..
...except for the head precisely in the middle of the feet crap.
I like that : "each time tighten the tolerances."
One question though, why does being called a band-aid teacher get at you so much. What does a band aid do, it helps to protect and mend the sore to allow it to heal properly, seems a compliment.
I know this is not how most people see it, but as long as there is substance around the band-aid then maybe it can repair the sore in the swing and make it healthy much quicker than surgery?
shootin4par
New
Here is a parrallel,
If you built houses and had to fix a house how would you feel is someone said you jerry rigged the house?
Last edited:
birdie_man
New
Toolish...
I guess it depends on your definition of "band-aid"...
The way I have known it and the way Brian has used it around here, a "band-aid" would be like if someone (let's say a slicer) is hitting it fat a lot....
....so you move the ball back in their stance.
"$30 please!"
Uh.....no.
Dude flips it...that's why he hits it fat. So you just get him to flip it less then right? Well.....not really......
Because....why does he flip it? Clubface is too open....
etc.
"Root cause" as Brian says. "First wobbly point" as Homer says.
What do you fix FIRST?
I guess it depends on your definition of "band-aid"...
The way I have known it and the way Brian has used it around here, a "band-aid" would be like if someone (let's say a slicer) is hitting it fat a lot....
....so you move the ball back in their stance.
"$30 please!"
Uh.....no.
Dude flips it...that's why he hits it fat. So you just get him to flip it less then right? Well.....not really......
Because....why does he flip it? Clubface is too open....
etc.
"Root cause" as Brian says. "First wobbly point" as Homer says.
What do you fix FIRST?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
The term "band-aid" in the realm of fixing "anything" not just including golf, is considered an insult an a slap to the face.
It's a kin to "put some duck tape on it."
It's a kin to "put some duck tape on it."
Lost it myself
When I lose "it" I have paid too much attention to the outcome of the shot at hand. The bad shots/swings continue and the attachment continues until I get to the point where I just tell myself I suck. Then I swing freely with abandonment. I lose (or lessen) the attachment to outcome of the shot and "it" sometimes reappears.
Iron Byron has never hit a bad shot because Iron Byron has no attachment to the outcome of the swing. Iron Byron is not trying to hit a career drive, post birdie, or even find the fairway. Even if Iron Byron was paired up against Pingman, standing on the tee, he would not try to outdrive Pingman. He would not try to outscore Pingman. Iron Byron does not even care that Pingman has the honor. Iron Byron just makes his motion with No Attachment To Outcome. Try swinging with NATO next time you are in search of "it".
PChandler
When I lose "it" I have paid too much attention to the outcome of the shot at hand. The bad shots/swings continue and the attachment continues until I get to the point where I just tell myself I suck. Then I swing freely with abandonment. I lose (or lessen) the attachment to outcome of the shot and "it" sometimes reappears.
Iron Byron has never hit a bad shot because Iron Byron has no attachment to the outcome of the swing. Iron Byron is not trying to hit a career drive, post birdie, or even find the fairway. Even if Iron Byron was paired up against Pingman, standing on the tee, he would not try to outdrive Pingman. He would not try to outscore Pingman. Iron Byron does not even care that Pingman has the honor. Iron Byron just makes his motion with No Attachment To Outcome. Try swinging with NATO next time you are in search of "it".
PChandler
Perfect Impact
New
Often in golf what is thought to be the bandaid is indeed the cure. Not all the time, obviously.
As for the Iron Byron, IF IT WAS PLAYING GOLF its operator would have some decisions to make. And it would have to place the machine and choose the club correctly. Bet if the operator was not allowed to use any devices to measure to the ball, and the "shoulder of the machine" moved to a different place for impact, and the "arm" and wrist angle were elastic as a human arm and wrist are, that the golfer would always beat the machine!
As for the Iron Byron, IF IT WAS PLAYING GOLF its operator would have some decisions to make. And it would have to place the machine and choose the club correctly. Bet if the operator was not allowed to use any devices to measure to the ball, and the "shoulder of the machine" moved to a different place for impact, and the "arm" and wrist angle were elastic as a human arm and wrist are, that the golfer would always beat the machine!
bts
New
Hall-of-fame post
BTW, not just outcome, but also detach yourself, during a swing, from the pivot, arms, wrists, hands, club, ball, ball flight, target,..............., except the intend of "sustain the lag" .
Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW, not just outcome, but also detach yourself, during a swing, from the pivot, arms, wrists, hands, club, ball, ball flight, target,..............., except the intend of "sustain the lag" .
bts
New
Last edited:
Set Up VS Execution
PI
Your are talking setup of the machine vs execution. If setup correctly, Iron Byron will NEVER lose "it" in execution. Even the world's #1 golfer will desire an outcome that interferes with his execution. How do I know? Because he buries his clubhead into the ground and mutters obsenities as his ball flies right into the woods. I betcha he setup correctly though for the shot at hand. Tiger hits it right because he tries to hit it straight and far. Or far and straight. Tiger to self "Tiger get your hands off the wheel" after one televised particular self-diagnosed execution error (or loss of "it").
Tiger is the best player in the world because he executes better than anyone else. Not because Haney taught him a new and improved swing.
Not all bad shots have a root cause in mechanics. I roundhouse and flip because I try to hit it far and straight not because I don't know any better.
PChandler
PI
Your are talking setup of the machine vs execution. If setup correctly, Iron Byron will NEVER lose "it" in execution. Even the world's #1 golfer will desire an outcome that interferes with his execution. How do I know? Because he buries his clubhead into the ground and mutters obsenities as his ball flies right into the woods. I betcha he setup correctly though for the shot at hand. Tiger hits it right because he tries to hit it straight and far. Or far and straight. Tiger to self "Tiger get your hands off the wheel" after one televised particular self-diagnosed execution error (or loss of "it").
Tiger is the best player in the world because he executes better than anyone else. Not because Haney taught him a new and improved swing.
Not all bad shots have a root cause in mechanics. I roundhouse and flip because I try to hit it far and straight not because I don't know any better.
PChandler
Last edited:
Perfect Impact
New
O you are so right. Posture,setup predetermines a lot but the head games you describe ruin the rest of us. I call it melting.
I don't know if there IS a way for someone to change his wiring from "flee" to "fight." Some women give in to abuse; some are tigers and wield MUCH more instantaneous power that frightens a man.
Fleeing is the bane in competitive golf that must have something to do with the breakdown when great talent doesn't perform when the chips are down.
I don't know if there IS a way for someone to change his wiring from "flee" to "fight." Some women give in to abuse; some are tigers and wield MUCH more instantaneous power that frightens a man.
Fleeing is the bane in competitive golf that must have something to do with the breakdown when great talent doesn't perform when the chips are down.
- Status