What makes some golfers "lose it"?

[Brian Manzella]

No, no, no, no, no, no --Ben Doyle

This thread started with the idea that golfers play well for a TIME and then POORLY--hence "Lose it."

Like when they shoot 62 on Thursday for the lead, then 76 on Friday.

Not just on one shot.

When I was much younger and had only been teaching for 10 years--about 15,000 lessons ago---if someone asked me the question:

Brian, why do some golfers "lose it"?

I would say something like this:

"Golfers don't know what they are trying to do, so when it goes bad, they don't know where to turn, they take some bad guesses and get lost on the way back to what they were doing when it worked. They need more know how."

Good answer, huh?

Sounds like BTS's answer.

But is the the Correct answer?

Well....maybe...

I had improved my swing since I was 10 years old, got to be a good playing young pro who was a threat to qualify for a US Open or a PGA tour event anyday, and...I went to see Ben Doyle in June of 1987, Ben changed everything I did (except my Bunker shots)---including how I raked the balls toward me when I practiced---and less than a month later I was hitting it so good it was scary.

I played the very tough (at the time) City Park East Course everyday at 11am with our great pal Don Villavaso. The highest score I shot from late June 1987 to November 1987 was 74. And I shot that twice. The other 60 to 70 rounds of golf on that 7,000 yard Par 72 averaged 71 with a LOW score of 69. That's a lot of 70's & 71's. If I would have putted any good at all I would have shot 68 every day.

What happened? Why didn't I just keep getting better and go out and play for a living like Ben thought I should have?

Why did I "lose it" back then?

Well, life happens, and I stopped playing and starting TINKERING, and by 1993 when I went to Louisville for the first time, I was a shell of my former self as a player.

Was it my LACK of knowledge? Was it the 20 pounds I gained? Was it---like Don Villavaso says---the fact that I sold a driver I hit dead straight 280 everytime? Was it the lack of practice? The Yips?

All of the above and a few dozen more.

But, I can tell you this, in 1989 when it started going bad I knew more about the golf swing than any PGA Tour player. And I knew way more than that when I returned from Louisville in December of 1993 and decided to "play golf" again.

I had just got back from our yearly trip to see Ben and went to play with friends that I hadn't played with in years. I played the City Park West Course with them, tried on every shot and shot 83.

83!

And the West was a couple of shots easier than the East.

So I went to work. Hitting balls everyday. Videoed every swing. Made DEAD SURE of every alignment.

It sure looked "good on video."

I was averaging about 4 or 5 over par on the six courses me and my pals were playing on the weekends, and me and Big Don were playing on the weekdays.

4 or 5 over par.

Then, in another round destined for a few over par score, I was playing a hole that gave me fits. A 309 yard, Par 4 with water and trees right. Sure, in a 'toonamint' I'd hit 4-iron-Sand wedge, but dammit, I hit driver there. The last two or three times dead right.

So....I decided to hit a BIG SLICE over a stand of trees. I figured I could keep it from going OB left and if I cut it 15 yards, I'd hit it 40 yards from the hole in the fairway.

I hit it 5 feet. Eagle.

Next hole, 305 Par 4 (short, but very tight course), 6 foot. Eagle.

I had a NEW PATTERN. The "Never Hook Again" pattern eventually evolved from that ONE SHOT and figuring out what David Toms did when he hit it good.

For the next two years I was a couple of HUNDRED under par.

A couple of HUNDRED.

Now, what happened there was NEVER EVER going to happen on my lesson tee at the time, or would ever happen on any "red pill" lesson tee that would have never ever tried the Pattern that worked.

By late 1996, it was all gone again. Lack of practice, more weight gain, changed clubs, tried to get "more conventional," and--like Tom Bartlett says--I listen to Ben and stopped Putting the way that got me a couple HUNDRED under par.

My game is still in the lost and found, or maybe--lately--is coming back.

What's the point?

Golfers "lose it" for many reasons. But, for the most part because of this:

Golf Instruction (to other people or to yourself) is a lot more like gardening than building buildings (or Machines). Everything changes from day to day. If you don't adjust correctly, you go backward fast.

The "red pill" army (a few dozen people, or maybe less than a dozen with a few dozen screennames) will say that LAW never takes a day off and PROPER ALIGNMENTS will win everytime if you do the dowel drills every day.

Baloney.

Finding the pattern that works for a golfer is a LOT HARDER than turning the page to Chapter 12. Finding the "right" pattern is NOT a science.

For the MILLIONTH TIME:

The Ball only knows what the clubhead is doing, so find a WAY, a Pattern, to make that happen correctly.

The JOB of every teacher should be to FIND that for their student and then "tend the garden" over time as the golfer changes (we get older everyday if we are lucky).

The Job of every student is to FIND a teacher or the IDEAS to teach themselves to make the clubhead pass through the ball correctly.

But, even if everyone does their jobs,

The golfer will STILL lose it from time to time.

"No one owns this game." --Donald Paul Villavaso

 

[blehnhard]

The Inquisitive Mind

Brian - for those golfers wanting to "play their best" or to "get better", the inquisitive mind can be a dangerous thing. Wanting to "know more" is sometimes a step backwards (sure helps sell all the golf mags every month though) because it crowds our minds with many things that may not necessarily pertain to us.

I too have always been a "tinkerer" looking for that little thing to get me over the hump. Many times taking 3 steps back for every step forward and then unable to find my way out of the maze of my own making.

If you can find a way to "Get it Right" with the club from 1 foot before to 1 foot after impact, all the rest is window dressing. Almost all golfers (me too) have worried too much 'what we look like' instead of how functional we are. Lee Buck did not give a rats a$$ what he looked like - he just found a way to put the club on the ball. Pretty is as pretty does.

We lose it because we aint happy doing what were doing (and just trying to do it a little better/more often) - we keep looking for the better way and get lost.

Bruce

 

[shootin4par]

there is nothing more frustrating then when you get it right for a few days and in that time when you did get it right, it was WAY above and beyond ANYTHING you had done, and was natural and easy. Dont know how you got there or how to get back. And when I say get it right, talking about long, high, low, cut, draw, with very little thought. Taking the ball striking from that of 6 handicap to that of a +3, without a doubt, then it goes away a few days later and you are left scratching your head, that is golf though

 

[birdie_man]

I was thinkin about this more over the past while....

One more thing with golf is that the more frustrated you get the harder you try usually....

....and it's most often counter-productive.

I mean....in OTHER sports doing that's an asset man...

....

In hockey....football....etc....

...it's good to be a maniac....cause when u snap u just outwork the other guys.

Doesn't work in golf tho.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I was thinkin about this more over the past while....

One more thing with golf is that the more frustrated you get the harder you try usually....

....and it it most often counter-productive.

I mean....in OTHER sports doing that's an asset man...

....

In hockey....football....etc....

...it's good to be a maniac....cause when u snap u just outwork the other guys.

Doesn't work in golf tho.

Tell me about it.

 

[tbyeaton0627]

Noone actually loses their swing, they lose the timing and rhythm but their motion and action remains constant and unchanging

 

[Leek]

According to Bobby Clampett's new book, he "lost it" when he went away from his natural swing, the one he developed under Ben Doyle and went to some pop TOUR instructors.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

According to Bobby Clampett's new book, he "lost it" when he went away from his natural swing, the one he developed under Ben Doyle and went to some pop TOUR instructors.

Uh...Good Story. But, not the right one. Might be part of it, after the fact. But, as Brian said MANY different things can cause it to go SASA.

 

[Chris Sturgess]

So why did Clampett lose it then?

Brian, did you ever try out for the pga tour in the years when you were a couple hundred under par?

 

[JonWil]

I like that : "each time tighten the tolerances."

One question though, why does being called a band-aid teacher get at you so much. What does a band aid do, it helps to protect and mend the sore to allow it to heal properly, seems a compliment.

I know this is not how most people see it, but as long as there is substance around the band-aid then maybe it can repair the sore in the swing and make it healthy much quicker than surgery?

I think anyone in golf instruction that would use, "A band-aid teacher" reference towards Brian is a person that does not value differences and as such is severly limited in their capactiy to teach. They undoubtedly see learning as a project rather than a process. F-em.

 

[puttmad]

....

Noone actually loses their swing, they lose the timing and rhythm but their motion and action remains constant and unchanging

Sorry, does not compute...

Surely if your timing and rhythm "get lost" then your motion and action, by definition, doesn't remain constant and DOES change, hence the downturn in form....

 

[Spike]

Said it before and say it again, the only thing worse than not knowing why you made a bad shot is......not knowing why you made a good one!??!

Lose it? Maybe ya never really had it?

 

[davidmac00]

never really had it?

Said it before and say it again, the only thing worse than not knowing why you made a bad shot is......not knowing why you made a good one!??!

Lose it? Maybe ya never really had it?

spike,
i would say that duval might have a case for saying he "had it".why did he lose it?
my opinion with him is that golf became less important with all that was going on outside it.i bet he has it in him still,just he sees the bigger picture now.
david

 

[Spike]

spike,
i would say that duval might have a case for saying he "had it".why did he lose it?
my opinion with him is that golf became less important with all that was going on outside it.i bet he has it in him still,just he sees the bigger picture now.
david

Fair enough, David. Point well taken.

It is hard, if not impossible, to know what is going on inside another person........it is hard enough just understanding what is going on inside ourselves.

So defining "it" would really help in the understanding of "losing it". For example, if "it" was the clubhead/clubface then "it" would be fairly easy to find, but only if you thought to look there. If you did think to look there then you would have to have a way to get to know "it" again. So you would investigate how to gain control of "it".

If "it" was confidence and you had no idea how you got it, then "it" would be hard to find. But if you knew how to build a Belief System through trust, knowledge and management, then "it" would be easier to find.

However, and I'm not saying David Dual is doing this.........having "it" and not wanting to use "it" is another story.

 

[hg]

spike,
i would say that duval might have a case for saying he "had it".why did he lose it?
my opinion with him is that golf became less important with all that was going on outside it.i bet he has it in him still,just he sees the bigger picture now.
david

My understanding with David is that he started tinkering with his swing trying to "improve" it and after losing it went back to an old coach to try to recapture his old swing.

 

[magic43]

Medical excuses???????

My understanding with David is that he started tinkering with his swing trying to "improve" it and after losing it went back to an old coach to try to recapture his old swing.

Didn't David Duval suffer from some kind of medical problem? Maybe back issues or inner ear problem affecting balance? Perhaps this is one of the reasons that an accomplished golfer "loses it". There have been accounts of pro's that playing with injury will, consienciously or sub-consienciously, change their swing ,sometimes ever so slightly, to compensate for that injury and thus ultimately affecting their swings for the worse.

Just a thought.

 

[vjcapron]

Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, not just outcome, but also detach yourself, during a swing, from the pivot, arms, wrists, hands, club, ball, ball flight, target,..............., except the intend of "sustain the lag" .

Yeah right. I'm going to think "Sustain the Lag" and all the magic just happens. Koolaid, anyone?

 

[Brian Manzella]

"Sustain the Lag" as an idea.

What most people don't realize is this very simple ABSOLUTE:

All of the mechanics and science in the world can be DEAD right or DEAD wrong. At the end of the day it is JUST AN IDEA THAT THE GOLFER IS TELLING HIMSELF TO DO.

Some work wonders. Some don't.

Some things that SEEM CORRECT BUT AIN'T—like Pivot non-stop to the finish—work very well for 90% of golfers. EVEN THOUGH IT IS TOTALLY INCORRECT!

"Sustain the Lag" as a mechanical concept is close to being 100% right. Mandrin has shown us that it is only about 90% correct.

As an idea: "I will sustain my lag pressure through the ball" if you actually know how to do it, is a great idea.

But, for me, as a "swing key" it was only so-so.

I played with LIFT, DROP and ROTATE for 18 months and played my best golf.

Three things that aren't 100% right either.

THIS IS THE ANSWER TO THE THREAD STARTING QUESTION:

Why does a golfer lose it?

Because they change something, on purpose or on accident. And, as a living being, THEY are always changing THEMSELVES every second. And, your TOTAL EXPERIENCE as a golfer and as a person changes every shot and every second.

"Golfers will probably never make precisely the same pattern twice in a lifetime." —Homer Kelley​

 

[Spike]

What most people don't realize is this very simple ABSOLUTE:

All of the mechanics and science in the world can be DEAD right or DEAD wrong. At the end of the day it is JUST AN IDEA THAT THE GOLFER IS TELLING HIMSELF TO DO.

Some work wonders. Some don't.

Some things that SEEM CORRECT BUT AIN'T—like Pivot non-stop to the finish—work very well for 90% of golfers. EVEN THOUGH IT IS TOTALLY INCORRECT!

"Sustain the Lag" as a mechanical concept is close to being 100% right. Mandrin has shown us that it is only about 90% correct.

As an idea: "I will sustain my lag pressure through the ball" if you actually know how to do it, is a great idea.

But, for me, as a "swing key" it was only so-so.

I played with LIFT, DROP and ROTATE for 18 months and played my best golf.

Three things that aren't 100% right either.

THIS IS THE ANSWER TO THE THREAD STARTING QUESTION:

Why does a golfer lose it?

Because they change something, on purpose or on accident. And, as a living being, THEY are always changing THEMSELVES every second. And, your TOTAL EXPERIENCE as a golfer and as a person changes every shot and every second.

"Golfers will probably never make precisely the same pattern twice in a lifetime." —Homer Kelley​

very

 

[shootin4par]

mho, when we walk do we all the sudden go through a period where we trip over our feet? walking is natural, and some people swing a golf club in a nutural manner, snead,daly. others swing in a manufactured manner, tiger. someone like daly might not ever loose his swing but rather his timing. someone like tiger could loose his swing and timing. Daly has worked, when he does range work, on the same stuff, daly's swing looks like it did a long time ago. tiger changes his swing all the time. Tiger needs to find a more natural swing cause if he did with his short game, he could be 11 for 13 instead of 9 for 13.