What would Moe Norman's "numbers" be, and should we care?

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I've seen a 66-year old Moe Norman hit a golf ball. I've seen Jim Furyk in his 20's and early 30's hit golf shots in person. Jim simply doesn't compare. And I'm a big fan of Furyk's game and swing. I think Furyk is probably the most underrated ballstriker of all time, but he doesn't have Moe's ballstriking ability. Even Trevino has said Moe was the best ballstriker he ever saw.

This argument sort of comes across like a novice saying that Tiger is longer off the tee than Jamie Sadlowski because Tiger is the greatest player in the world and Sadlowski has never even won a mini-tour event. And of course Sadlowski can't really hit it 400 yards long because he would shoot 60 every time out. We all know that scenario to be false because if anything, there's a ton more to the game than driving distance and just because somebody can hit it unearthly long off the tee, doesn't mean they can play a lick.

Hey, I believe one can learn a lot from Furyk's swing and clubhead and clubface dimensions thru impact as well. But if we are talking all time greatest ballstriker, I believe it's Moe or at least Hogan or Trevino.


3JACK

I understand the difference between ballstriking and winning tournaments. Based on all the eyewitness testimony, you'd certainly think that Norman could light up Trackman and had great clubface and path control and an understanding of ball flight and the ability to hit a lot of different shots.

Sadlowski is more powerful than PGA golfers and longer, but not a better golfer. I realize that.

But I'd guess that you might be surprised how well Trevino, Miller, Watson, or Furyk, Woods or many, many other golfers might fare against Moe on a Trackman-off contest.

I appreciate the admiration of Moe. But you do understand that the "I saw it with eyes, trust me others don't compare" doesn't do it for me as a standard even though I think you and cmartin are both likely very good judges of golf and shot making. I'm not trying to diss you guys. cmartin in particular has pointed me in a helpful direction several times with things I've been working on through some of his posts here. I'm just not willing to concede -- on eyewitness evidence -- that Trackman would say Moe Norman was in a different league than hall-of-fame golfers who could also light up Trackman.

For me, the ultimate question that is more relevant is whether any of the things people study in Moe's swing will actually help them have similar shotmaking abilities to him or whether the time would be much better spent renting Trackman time. I think people often attribute shotmaking ability to the rhetorical flourishes of players rather than the boring ability to control clubface, path, and low point -- the question is how do you learn those skills? I think Tom Bartlett once said learning that clubface control skill was something like learning how to walk on a high wire. And I think people spend a lot of time focusing on the costume of the high-wire guy rather than the actual skills involved.
 
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I think the time would be far better off renting Trackman and using it to help your golf swing. I plan on using it this spring and can't wait to do so (I've used it in small doses twice before).

The debate on this began for me when somebody asked if a golfer would be better off trying to zero everything out and try to hit it straight every time or just hit a draw or a fade everytime that they could control. I then stated that I thought Moe was the greatest ballstriker of all time because he could hit it straight on command every time (as well as hit fades, draws, hooks, and slices on command --- contrary to what many people say about Moe).

Then we got into the hubbub about Moe being a minor leaguer and all this other junk.

I think hitting it dead straight consistently is no longer a mystery with Trackman and if you're a serious instructor of golf, you should study Moe's swing to help you with your instruction. You should also study Miller's, Furyk's, Trevino's, Knudson's, Hogan's, Tiger's swings as well. And if you're a golfer, I don't think it can hurt to study and learn some things from Moe. But, you have to develop your own pattern that can perform best for you and don't be afraid to try and hit the ball straight every time because it can be done.





3JACK
 
For me, the ultimate question that is more relevant is whether any of the things people study in Moe's swing will actually help them have similar shotmaking abilities to him or whether the time would be much better spent renting Trackman time.

Why is that the ultimate question? Who said that trying to incorporate elements of Moe's swing was more valuable than Trackman time? If someone actually said that, why did you listen?

Moe's Trackman numbers would be awesome. Arguing this would be a stupid waste of time. So would trying to copy his swing in order to get good Trackman numbers. Moe was never on a Trackman.

However, you can get on a Trackman, thereby eliminating the need to copy Moe Norman. Trackman allows you to hit the ball like Moe without swinging like him.

As I understand it, the great benefit of Trackman is that with the assistance of a competent instructor, it allows the golfer to hit better golf shots with minor, relatively unobtrusive swing adjustments (i.e. swing more left).

For the driver, you may only need to tee it a little higher and move the ball forward in your stance, as dictated by Trackman.

If someone tells you that your time would be better spent copying Moe than getting on a Trackman and receiving concrete information about your swing, then he has conclusively proved himself to be both an idiot and an unreliable source for swing instruction.

Trackman represents the bright future of personalized, efficient golf instruction. Blindly mimicking a dead golfer represents the dark past of generic, outdated information. No one with a brain would tell you to look backwards to move forwards.
 
I think the time would be far better off renting Trackman and using it to help your golf swing. I plan on using it this spring and can't wait to do so (I've used it in small doses twice before).

The debate on this began for me when somebody asked if a golfer would be better off trying to zero everything out and try to hit it straight every time or just hit a draw or a fade everytime that they could control. I then stated that I thought Moe was the greatest ballstriker of all time because he could hit it straight on command every time (as well as hit fades, draws, hooks, and slices on command --- contrary to what many people say about Moe).

Then we got into the hubbub about Moe being a minor leaguer and all this other junk.

I think hitting it dead straight consistently is no longer a mystery with Trackman and if you're a serious instructor of golf, you should study Moe's swing to help you with your instruction. You should also study Miller's, Furyk's, Trevino's, Knudson's, Hogan's, Tiger's swings as well. And if you're a golfer, I don't think it can hurt to study and learn some things from Moe. But, you have to develop your own pattern that can perform best for you and don't be afraid to try and hit the ball straight every time because it can be done.

Fair enough, Richie.

And I readily admit someone can be a great ballstriker and a poor tournament golfer. Moe's tournament record is the only thing I am describing as AAA; to me, that just means that I am a little more skeptical of slapping any kind of "greatest" label on anything he did, but I understand had seen it in person I might understand the adulation of his ballstriking.

I personally think Trackman and the informed usage of Trackman is ultimately going to revolutionize golf and change how we view the aesthetics of a "good swing" and evaluate good ballstriking. I had my own tiny, minor dose of that at Lake Presidential, and 15 mins of information might have saved me from another summer of my now former pattern. And I don't have the athletic skills of very good players -- I can't conceive of how fast it can improve those players.

Did anyone hear the commentators talking about Rickie Fowler this past week -- he apparently only works on ballflight (that's how they described it) and doesn't take lessons to change his basic swing. Imagine hugely talented players learning at an early age to hit zero-d out shots and other variations (will that reduce the learning curve by 300,000 range shots?), being able to test it, and then take it to the course. Would Tiger have already won 23 majors if he just studied ballflight and had a great "Trackman interpreter" to help?
 
If someone tells you that your time would be better spent copying Moe than getting on a Trackman and receiving concrete information about your swing, then he has conclusively proved himself to be both an idiot and an unreliable source for swing instruction.

I agree with that.
 
What is trackman??

Paul Patin

whoa.
it's a machine that uses doppler radar technology to track ball flight and can give an enormous amount of information include plane (vert and hori), path, face angle, spin loft, dynamic loft, angle of attack, etc.
do a search - here or google.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
The question isn't whether you should try to hit it straight ALL the time or even as your stock shot. The thing people aren't "getting" is that if you CAN get someone to "zero out" on trackman they would have a really really neutral swing that can do ANYTHING. So if they ultimately want to play that slight draw, take them from zero'd out and move them to the right a bit and vice versa.

It's much easier to learn how to hit a repeatable draw/fade once you KNOW how to hit it STRAIGHT.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
A few random, unimportant thoughts. First, good post Jim. Couldnt agree more. Second, Trackman is the greatest thing ever invented (I'm such a whore). And Third, I'm all about the Moe Norman thing. But I watched him in Titusville on numerous occasions hit balls. Yeah, they were all pretty straight but ive seen several guys do that only with more pop on the ball. Nick Price I feel could do that and maybe more. I think legends grow, they're fun for discussion. Guys who came first have such an advantage in the debate ("no one will ever be as good as so and so WAS") Its like no one can ever hit as well as Williams. For all my dad knows, pitching stopped when Koufax retired. Moe was incredible but, i dont know about a class by himself.

Could be wrong, im going back to watching Super Bowl highlights.
 
im going back to watching Super Bowl highlights

You mean Super Bowl XXX 95-96 season? ;)

Sorry had to dig for that dig so that says something about the Steelers! I knew they had lost one at least but didnt know it was only one...

The Chargers made it to one...and lost! (I can't remember who they beat to get in though...do you Kevin??)

:)

Back to regular programming,

BTW I have a bunch of Moe stories that were all second hand but the premise was that he had amazing control, not just hitting it straight but hitting the ball at or where he wanted, like picking out letters on signs in the distance and hitting them, hitting pins etc. I have seen Nick Price in person and it is impressive just didn't see the rest of the range coming over to watch him hit.
 
A few random, unimportant thoughts. First, good post Jim. Couldnt agree more. Second, Trackman is the greatest thing ever invented (I'm such a whore). And Third, I'm all about the Moe Norman thing. But I watched him in Titusville on numerous occasions hit balls. Yeah, they were all pretty straight but ive seen several guys do that only with more pop on the ball. Nick Price I feel could do that and maybe more. I think legends grow, they're fun for discussion. Guys who came first have such an advantage in the debate ("no one will ever be as good as so and so WAS") Its like no one can ever hit as well as Williams. For all my dad knows, pitching stopped when Koufax retired. Moe was incredible but, i dont know about a class by himself.

Could be wrong, im going back to watching Super Bowl highlights.


When did you watch him?

That's a question I have to ask because almost everybody who watched him at his clinics watched him when he was in his 70's. I saw him at the age of 66 years old.

Tough to have a lot of pop on the ball at that age. And I would hope that Nick Price could put more pop on the ball than a man in his 60's or 70's.

I've met about a dozen people thru my blog who have talked about playing with Moe earlier than that. In fact, one person claimed they played with Moe as early as 1979.

Every single one of them said roughly the same thing. He shot about 65 or so and if he would've just taken his time to putt and putted decent, he would've shot 60 with ease. More importantly, he was hitting it easily 280 yards with a balata ball and a persimmon driver. And that was still in his 50's.

Probably the biggest misperception about Moe I've seen is that he could only hit it straight. He could hit a draw, fade, slice or hook on command and make it look easy.

So with the legend also comes the naysayers who are saying stuff that is just plainly false.





3JACK
 
If Tiger says that Moe was the best ever, I have a hard time believing that he wasn't. There are too many people whose opinions on the matter are valid and relevant who say that Moe was amazing.

Sometimes people don't want to believe that incredible things happened in the past. Some people don't believe that man has walked on the moon. To them and others like them, I say, "Enjoy being a miserable skeptic, I'm sure normal people just love to hear you talk about which amazing historical events didn't happen.

Why not believe that Moe Norman was awesome, when there are so many people with first-hand accounts who say he was the best they ever saw?

Kevin, if in 20 years you tell some young student about Nick Price's unreal compression, and he laughs in your face, how will you explain that Nick Price was the best there ever was?
 

greenfree

Banned
moe.jpg


Who's watching who? Faldo, Price, Couples, Crenshaw, watching Moe!
 
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Little off subject but best Moe story I ever heard is he hit the flag with his approach on the first three holes and walked in. He had no reason to keep playing. He needed to back off the Coke though.......wow Austin Powers teeth. True character of the game though, very underrated in US.

JeffS
 
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