What's Hogan saying???
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Brian Manzella
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Feel vs Real.
That may be where he felt it from torquing it much earlier.
That may be where he felt it from torquing it much earlier.
lia41985
New member
Brian,
The force Hogan could be describing could be going "forward" (and be "real") and still, the summation of other forces on the club will still result in the NET force on the club being "normal", no? Hogan isn't necessarily disagreeing with what your scientists are saying. I feel like you may be dismissing this a little quickly.
The force Hogan could be describing could be going "forward" (and be "real") and still, the summation of other forces on the club will still result in the NET force on the club being "normal", no? Hogan isn't necessarily disagreeing with what your scientists are saying. I feel like you may be dismissing this a little quickly.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Stick a stick in the ground and pull straight up on it, isn't there force on BOTH sides of the grip?
lia41985
New member
Let's stick with what Hogan's saying. He's not talking about pulling a stick out of the ground. He's talking about what he's feeling in his actual swing--a feeling of "forward pressure." You're saying it's just a feeling and it's not real. You're scientists have told you that almost all the NET force on the club to and through impact is "normal". But Hogan's not talking about NET force he's talking about one component of the net force, the force ("pressure") that he feels is being inputted by the right index finger "forward." You can say that he's not feeling something real but you do realize that even if this force is real that it isn't in conflict with what you're scientists are saying (again, they're talking about NET force)? There are many different forces that are being put on the club that sum to equal the net force.
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SteveT
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Here is my response to the video clip from the other Hogan thread:
@lia... yes, Hogan 'feels' a 'pressure' on the good ol' PP#3 at his palmar index finger pad... but that doesn't tell us where the 'forces' are generated. One could assume that 'pushing' creates the pressure and the right hand applies the force, but that's not a scientifically adequate explanation because it does not take into account the entire 'system' associated with the feeling of the 'pressure'.
It's a post hoc ergo propter hoc 'feeling'. Science demand a definitive explanation.
@lia... yes, Hogan 'feels' a 'pressure' on the good ol' PP#3 at his palmar index finger pad... but that doesn't tell us where the 'forces' are generated. One could assume that 'pushing' creates the pressure and the right hand applies the force, but that's not a scientifically adequate explanation because it does not take into account the entire 'system' associated with the feeling of the 'pressure'.
It's a post hoc ergo propter hoc 'feeling'. Science demand a definitive explanation.
Good point/example. Probably out in left field here, but with a rotational movement, would this give a different sensation.
Somewhere I read or was told to take the right thumb and forefinger off the club and swing. This was intended for me to rid the right hand death grip. I thought that was in 5 Lessons as either text or an illustration. I go with you, feel...
lia41985
New member
Steve: I'll repeat what I wrote to Brian. If there is a forward force being applied in the fashion Hogan describes the NET force on the club can still be normal when all the other forces on the club are summed in order to determine the NET force.
Would you rule out palmar flexion as creating the "forward pressure" that Hogan is referring to? Again, that's one input of force that enters the calculation for NET force. You're right that the left hand can also be pushing. The "jump" is happening. There's "parametric acceleration." All of these are forces on the club. Hogan is talking about one force. I think there's a knee jerk reaction to can what Hogan's saying because it is being perceived to lend credence to some old, discarded ideas from a certain book which definitely does not have all the answers.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
When I'm hitting it my best, I feel right forefinger pressure from halfway down all the way down to impact and then somewhere in that zone, it's taken out when going normal. Exactly when is really tough to say so the feel vs real would probably be where I'd fall.
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SteveT
Guest
Based on those pictures and the video clip, you cannot deduce that a kinetic "force" is being applied by the right hand and perpendicular to the shaft based only on "feel" or images. I think Brian has also said as much in his topic thread: "All you picture looking golf swing THEORISTS....".
lia41985
New member
It's definitely an individual feel thing, Kevin. I just think there is also a real aspect to it as well. Sure, net force is normal. However, there are multiple forces that sum to the net force being normal. I think one of the "forward" forces could be what Hogan is talking about. Some of it could be from the "run up" as well. Some of it could be from the right elbow straightening. Some of it could be from right palmar flexion. Someone like Hogan who turned hard left may have needed more "forward" in order for his net force to be "normal" and not abnormally "normal", i.e. causing a glancing blow. Maybe his closed counter fall "used up" some of the "forward" early and so he's getting some "forward", later in the swing, the way he discusses.
lia41985
New member
Steve,
I'm not deducing a thing. I'm presenting what Hogan said. I'm asking what others thought he meant by it. I'm not looking for an answer. I'm searching for what could be the answer. It's a hypothesis. Are you suggesting I'm not entitled to make a hypothesis in this forum?
I'm not deducing a thing. I'm presenting what Hogan said. I'm asking what others thought he meant by it. I'm not looking for an answer. I'm searching for what could be the answer. It's a hypothesis. Are you suggesting I'm not entitled to make a hypothesis in this forum?
Dariusz J.
New member
It is very tough to get rid of rear index finger pressure with a weak RH on top of the grip because of the way fingers are being jointed with the palm. The index finger base is not in line with other three fingers because it is supposed to work fluently with the thumb (pinching move is one of the most critical). Weak RH grip makes the rear index finger detach more from other fingers and create more torque because of that.
I believe Hogan must have felt it pressing the grip until losing the wrist flexion (as I feel it as well having a very weak RH).
Cheers
I believe Hogan must have felt it pressing the grip until losing the wrist flexion (as I feel it as well having a very weak RH).
Cheers
Virtuoso
New
A really important point that has massive implications. Even tour pro's have a hard time distigushing WHEN exactly they are applying certain forces in their swing. This understanding is critical for accepting the actual measured forces at impact.
...and it's where I wished my thread about Hogan (and "mythical lag") and Project 1.68 had gone vs where it did.
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SteveT
Guest
I think those are 'resultant' forces and not the force components of the hands individually. Miura doesn't define the component forces in his study.
Lindsey Newman
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Hogan is saying -"Jimmy, pass me the lighter and grab us another gin. This is some funny sh!t going on in this forum. Hey Harry, Bobby, do you believe this?"
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SteveT
Guest
@Dariusz ... Is the pressure felt at PP#3 caused by the right hand forcing itself against the club handle... or is it caused by the club handle pushing against the hand... AT IMPACT?!
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