Whats the science behind a tour pitch

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Ringer

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I think another component to look at is the limiting of the kinetic chain. This helps control power and leaves it up to just a couple of different torques.

Ever wonder why "stay on the left leg" works so well? I limits the hip turn and eliminates the shear force the legs apply to the ground to create torque as well. No leg action, no hip turn, no power from them. Now you're down to just what the shoulder and arms do.

Putting is essntially taking out the varying torque you apply to the shaft as you keep the wrists stiff. Now the only torque you are applyin comes from the shoulder. Having only one torque to control makes varying the speed much much easier.

Imagine trying to control the distances of your putts with leg drive, hip turn, shoulder turn, and shaft torque. You would have to generate such small quantities in each section you'd develop the yips wouldn't you. ;)
 
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birly-shirly

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Ringer said:
I think another component to look at is the limiting of the kinetic chain. This helps control power and leaves it up to just a couple of different torques.

Ever wonder why "stay on the left leg" works so well? I limits the hip turn and eliminates the shear force the legs apply to the ground to create torque as well. No leg action, no hip turn, no power from them. Now you're down to just what the shoulder and arms do.

Putting is essntially taking out the varying torque you apply to the shaft as you keep the wrists stiff. Now the only torque you are applyin comes from the shoulder. Having only one torque to control makes varying the speed much much easier.

Imagine trying to control the distances of your putts with leg drive, hip turn, shoulder turn, and shaft torque. You would have to generate such small quantities in each section you'd develop the yips wouldn't you. ;)
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What about using just one of those sources - like leg drive OR hip turn? You'd cut down on "the number of moving parts" and you'd be using "big muscles" to boot. Wouldn't that be the ultimate pressure-proof stroke...? Or even the ultimate-pressure proof stroke...
 
R

Rick Dandy

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New TV Reality Show

Survivor: At Manzella Academy 2010

Location and Tools:

One month in a Caddy Pen
One Muirfield 20th SW
Cigarettes
Hershey Bars
Coca Cola
Playing Cards
Some Pennies
A few castaway balls
Concrete Floor

Contest:The Tour Pitch For Your House
 
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R

Ringer

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birly-shirly said:
What about using just one of those sources - like leg drive OR hip turn? You'd cut down on "the number of moving parts" and you'd be using "big muscles" to boot. Wouldn't that be the ultimate pressure-proof stroke...? Or even the ultimate-pressure proof stroke...
Click to expand...

I get what you're saying and it COULD be done, but there's not enough motion with the leg to do it. Possibly if you just stuck your arms against your body with the club in hand and turned your hips it might work. Definitely not recommended. heh.
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Brian Manzella said:
Parametric Acceleration.

It provides for a steep enough angle to get to the ball, and a shallow enough "flat spot" to keep the clubhead level-ish to the ground so the club doesn't dig, or tilt the D-Plane down too much.

This Parametric Acceleration, a pulling up on the grip so that the grip end stays very close to the belt line to and through impact, speed the club up to get the ball to go far enough when contact is very low on the face (which makes the ball launch lower and spin more).

The golfer as he is applying this Parametric Acceleration, is cutting across the ball hard, probably with a path in the neighborhood of 4 or 5° outside-in, with a face a decent amount open to that.

More friction, more spin, less divot, less chance of skulling, pretty much the cast's arse.
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BrianM ... I think this happens to me, but I tend to square or even close my stance to stay on target. I have to D-plane my wedge play.

I rarely use a descending hit on the ball and a divot ... I tend to 'nip' the ball at the bottom of my steep swing ... I'm tall, slim and my clubs are 2º upright and extended by up to 1 inch. My wedge shots are high with minimal spin .. and the ball hits the green bounces twice or three times and stops cold ... no roll. I don't/can't 'work' the ball from about 150 yard because it's all straight at the pin or my choice of the green. Works great for me.

Your thoughts ....
 
G

goley

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please film it and a regular pitch shot as well as the numbers from trackman and a shot of what the ball does when it lands... no heart attack though please!!
 
Steve Khatib

Steve Khatib

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littleacorns said:
Survivor: At Manzella Academy 2010

Location and Tools:

One month in a Caddy Pen
One Murifield 20th SW
Cigarettes
Hershey Bars
Coca Cola
Playing Cards
Some Pennies
A few castaway balls
Concrete Floor

Contest:The Tour Pitch For Your House
Click to expand...

Gold! Funny stuff Rick.
 
R

Rick Dandy

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DAMN THE STALLION IS GOOD!

"The Science" (of Survivor, Manzella Academy 2010)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Parametric Acceleration." (Off of Concrete)

"It provides for a steep enough angle to get to the ball, and a shallow enough "flat spot" to keep the clubhead level-ish to the ground so the club doesn't dig, or tilt the D-Plane down too much." (Off of Concrete)
Day ONE in the Caddy Pen
Pitch Pennies For Your Girlfriend

"This Parametric Acceleration, a pulling up on the grip so that the grip end stays very close to the belt line to and through impact, speed the club up to get the ball to go far enough when contact is very low on the face (which makes the ball launch lower and spin more). "
(OFF OF CONCRETE)

"The golfer as he is applying this Parametric Acceleration, is cutting across the ball hard, probably with a path in the neighborhood of 4 or 5° outside-in, with a face a decent amount open to that."

DAY TWO in the Caddy Pen
Play Gin for smokes

"More friction, more spin, less divot, less chance of skulling, pretty much the cast's arse."

Day THREE in the Caddy Pen
A fight breaks out but it's cool, the Orange Man shows and the Stallions' Hypothesis is proven again.

"Tour players are stupid good at it."
(TOUR PITCH OFF OF CONCRETE FOR YOUR HOUSE)
 
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mjstrong

mjstrong

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SteveT said:
BrianM ... I think this happens to me, but I tend to square or even close my stance to stay on target. I have to D-plane my wedge play.

I rarely use a descending hit on the ball and a divot ... I tend to 'nip' the ball at the bottom of my steep swing ... I'm tall, slim and my clubs are 2º upright and extended by up to 1 inch. My wedge shots are high with minimal spin .. and the ball hits the green bounces twice or three times and stops cold ... no roll. I don't/can't 'work' the ball from about 150 yard because it's all straight at the pin or my choice of the green. Works great for me.

Your thoughts ....
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Not Brian obviously, but:

If you want to be able to hit more down on your pitch shots, you may need to stand more open. D-plane applications - a leftward plane with a downward strike can produce a straight path, but a square stance/plane will need a level, 'nipped' angle of attack to produce a straight path.

Now, if your point is that you shouldn't have to hit down on pitch shots/wedge play, then disregard all that I wrote above.
 
B

birly-shirly

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Brian Manzella said:
I'm serious as a heart attack here, WTF are you talking about???????????????

sometimes........bang-zoom!
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I'll try to break it down...

Your first post talked a lot about parametric acceleration (wtfti), a bit about club path and face alignment, and a tiny amount about contact low on the face making for a low launch and high spin.

I replied, saying that I thought the crux issue was the contact and resulting spin. But you hadn't explained WHY contact low on the face results in more spin, and to the best of my knowledge, neither has anyone else except in terms that sound like guesses.

You replied, with the offer to film yourself hitting the shot.

I replied, somewhat confused that you had confused the issues of ability to execute with the ability to explain. I'm pretty sure that Fred (Couples) or John (Daly) could demonstrate the shot, but I would no more expect them to explain the physics of impact and high backspin rates than to take sides in a Homer Kelley vers Theodore Jorgensen debate.

So the 2 relevant questions are:

IS the key to the "tour pitch" making contact slightly low on the face? and;

If so, WHY does the low contact maximise spin?

That's the minimum I expected from a thread entitled the Science behind the Tour Pitch
 
R

Rick Dandy

New
Day FOUR: Caddy Pen

Parametric Acceleration: for a mass rotating around a pivot, if the pivot is moved in the direction opposite to the direction of centrifugal force of the mass, the kinetic energy of the mass could be increased. The increase is a result of the mutual action of the two governing factors of the system, which are the centripetal force and the pull velocity.

You're presenting the middle of the sole of the open face wedge. There is very little forward clubshaft lean. On the way to the ball: Your PIVOT! (The Italian Drunk Is a Midget For This Stroke Standing On Your Shoulder) pulling inward from the ball and upward from the ball creates a "steep enough and flat enough" attack angle to create some speed low on the face with spin.

As Brian Says, "Use your Pivot, Arms, and Hands to apply force to the club in the proper amounts and at the proper time, positioning the golfer and the club to create the proper "D" Plane for the selected shot."

Especially off concrete. Don't mess with Texas!
 
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Virtuoso

Virtuoso

New
birly-shirly said:
I'll try to break it down...

Your first post talked a lot about parametric acceleration (wtfti), a bit about club path and face alignment, and a tiny amount about contact low on the face making for a low launch and high spin.

I replied, saying that I thought the crux issue was the contact and resulting spin. But you hadn't explained WHY contact low on the face results in more spin, and to the best of my knowledge, neither has anyone else except in terms that sound like guesses.

You replied, with the offer to film yourself hitting the shot.

I replied, somewhat confused that you had confused the issues of ability to execute with the ability to explain. I'm pretty sure that Fred (Couples) or John (Daly) could demonstrate the shot, but I would no more expect them to explain the physics of impact and high backspin rates than to take sides in a Homer Kelley vers Theodore Jorgensen debate.

So the 2 relevant questions are:

IS the key to the "tour pitch" making contact slightly low on the face? and;

If so, WHY does the low contact maximise spin?

That's the minimum I expected from a thread entitled the Science behind the Tour Pitch
Click to expand...

Hey Birly, I would have to disagree that this shot (assuming we mean the one that is struck with a fairly shallow angle of attack and open face but launches low and spins a alot) is only produced from hit locations low on the face. Go tee the ball up and hit the shot, it can be done quite well off the top of the head, ie, the shot is produced "accidentally" off the top of kikuyu grass.

The physics (I think this was the op's original question) is something to do with a pro's ability to deliver the exact optimal dynamic loft to create spin at that speed (57-58ish). It is the highest level of friction available and right at the point of diminishing returns. The friction converts a lot of the kinetic energy into spin and there is less energy left over to contribute to the vertical component of ball velocity; thus the launch is lower....surprisingly low....and the ball stops incredibly fast given it's shallow terminal angle when it lands. Sometimes called the skidder.

The low launch/ high spin is not caused by vertical gear effect because the cg is not far enough behind the face....in fact, the cg is in front of the face on an L-wedge.
 
S

SteveT

Guest
littleacorns said:
Parametric Acceleration: for a mass rotating around a pivot, if the pivot is moved in the direction opposite to the direction of centrifugal force of the mass, the kinetic energy of the mass could be increased. The increase is a result of the mutual action of the two governing factors of the system, which are the centripetal force and the pull velocity.
Click to expand...

Now that's a loaded 'scientific' definition ... where did you find it ... along with the term "Parametric" (other than BrianM's post) ... or did you make it up ...??

Actually, I'm impressed ...:cool:
 
Virtuoso

Virtuoso

New
leon said:
??? Please explain what you mean by "in front of the face". I don't understand.
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Hi leon, I'm sorry, I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. How about: the cg is above and targetward of the face plane.

But essentially my point was that the cg has to be a significant distance behind the face before any kind of gear effect takes place.
 
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