WHERE'S THE TORQUE?? - by Brian Manzella

[SteveT]

SteveT,
Thanks for the reply. ........
This does explain some of the geometry, but what does it say about any torque?

Okay, here's the entire reference excerpt from the Nesbit study:

"Angular motion: Beta component

Figures 10, 11, and 12 illustrate the beta component
of the angular velocity, angular acceleration, and
torque respectively for the selected subjects. The
beta angular components indicate the pitch motion
of the club. While the beta motion is the smallest of
the angular motions, Figures 10 and 11 show that it
is still significant. Since the path of the grip and club
head define different planes (Figure 3), pitch motion
of the club must take place. As the speed of the club
increases, so must the beta motion as is indicated in
Figure 10. The large variations in beta velocity
curves among subjects further emphasize the relative
difference in hand and club head paths taken to
impact. The scratch golfer had the least pitch motion
up to impact and the lowest beta angular velocity at
impact. All four subject exhibited a stabilization of
the pitch motion as indicated by the low beta angular
accelerations at impact (Figure 11).

The beta torque curves exhibit large subject-
to-subject variations. In general, the torques
increased towards impact which coincides with the
rapid pitching of the club, then tend toward zero
near impact as the pitch accelerations approach zero.
The large negative torques after impact result mainly
from the mechanical rolling over of the wrists which
attempts to pitch down the club. All beta actions
exhibited large ranges (Table 3). These motions and
torques reflected characteristics of individual swing
style, and were not related to skill level or club head
velocity."

Hope this helps you feel the torques when the club pitches up/down. Really, you should study the full Nesbit study to make better sense of the measured torques of the pitch motions.

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

solid threads on here lately that have had me thinking. how would one classify the torques this lacrosse player is putting on the club? (originally posted by socalesq)

Rabil's 111-mph Shot in HD, Slow Motion - YouTube

it looks similar to a baseball player who brings the bat from vertical to horizontal during a swing. there's a lot of power in this move, but it seems like the opposite of beta-torque, at least as i understand it in terms of a "tumble". and it doesn't look like basic alpha or gamma torque either.

 

[rprevost]

How much should we think about creating these torques actively with the hands? I keep coming back to Nicklaus's statement that he does nothing with the hands other than hold on to the club. I think also of what Kevin said in another thread that when he swings hard he gets out of the way and club squares up on its own, suggesting that the torques are not created consciously by cranking the hands but maybe consciously making sure that the hand path is correct.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

You can achieve some of the "thoughtless hands" by having good hand path. Good hand path can create the proper torques. I know that sounds contridicting, but by how you use your pivot to direct your arm swing has huge impact on hand path.

For me, not sliding my pivot or allowing my pivot to drag my arms and hand path towards the ball allows 2 things to happen

1. Allows my arms to swing down more vertically assisting the tumble

2. Allows my hand path to reach low point earlier which helps me to apply the proper torque on the handle

My divots are shallower, flight is straighter and distance control is consistent.

 

[bluebird]

SteveT,

That was very helpful. The truth is there is absolutely no feeling of any beta torques in my swing, thats the reason for the questions. The only questions that are left unanswered are in the realm of intentions. Specifically whether the goal is path control, or acceleration. When I view Bryan's lacrosse video it seems acceleration, when I read Lindsay's response I think path. Thanks to everyone.

 

[bluebird]

Lindsey,

Thanks for the response. Your comment on the pivot is very interesting. How does one not allow his pivot to drag his arms and hand path towards the ball? My pivot is controllable up to a certain point, then it seems uncontrollable.

John

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

You can achieve some of the "thoughtless hands" by having good hand path. Good hand path can create the proper torques. I know that sounds contridicting, but by how you use your pivot to direct your arm swing has huge impact on hand path.

For me, not sliding my pivot or allowing my pivot to drag my arms and hand path towards the ball allows 2 things to happen

1. Allows my arms to swing down more vertically assisting the tumble

2. Allows my hand path to reach low point earlier which helps me to apply the proper torque on the handle

My divots are shallower, flight is straighter and distance control is consistent.

great post, i have been working on this. i am thinking there is an optimal body (pivot) move that potentiates an ideal path for a given shot. that hand path could be tweaked with stance, shoulder turn, and grip pressure. the clubface alignment could be tweaked by changing hand position (grip strength) on the club to "dial it in". but ideally, in order to maximize clubhead speed, the primary pressure you are putting on the club with the hands is flexion with the back wrist and extension with the front wrist in a move towards the "spiderman" position.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Lindsey,

Thanks for the response. Your comment on the pivot is very interesting. How does one not allow his pivot to drag his arms and hand path towards the ball? My pivot is controllable up to a certain point, then it seems uncontrollable.

John

I believe it is the difference of how fast the pivot is turning verses the arms lowering. I think its very difficult to try to turn and stay turned while the arms lower. I like to get my arms lowering vertically while allowing my pivot to respond. I do not try to use my pivot to generate speed, but rather support my arm swing.

 

[ZAP]

You can achieve some of the "thoughtless hands" by having good hand path. Good hand path can create the proper torques. I know that sounds contridicting, but by how you use your pivot to direct your arm swing has huge impact on hand path.

For me, not sliding my pivot or allowing my pivot to drag my arms and hand path towards the ball allows 2 things to happen

1. Allows my arms to swing down more vertically assisting the tumble

2. Allows my hand path to reach low point earlier which helps me to apply the proper torque on the handle

My divots are shallower, flight is straighter and distance control is consistent.

Me too. My problem is sine i have been a tugger so long it is super tough for me to sort of wait for it. Seems like it about half an hour from the top of my backswing to impact when I get it right.

 

[gmbtempe]

You can achieve some of the "thoughtless hands" by having good hand path. Good hand path can create the proper torques. I know that sounds contridicting, but by how you use your pivot to direct your arm swing has huge impact on hand path.

For me, not sliding my pivot or allowing my pivot to drag my arms and hand path towards the ball allows 2 things to happen

1. Allows my arms to swing down more vertically assisting the tumble

2. Allows my hand path to reach low point earlier which helps me to apply the proper torque on the handle

My divots are shallower, flight is straighter and distance control is consistent.

I 100% concur with this post, I hate a sliding pivot that total jacks up the hand path.

 

[lia41985]

I believe it is the difference of how fast the pivot is turning verses the arms lowering. I think its very difficult to try to turn and stay turned while the arms lower. I like to get my arms lowering vertically while allowing my pivot to respond. I do not try to use my pivot to generate speed, but rather support my arm swing.

John Jacobs, in "Practical Golf" writes:

"It is a common misconception, even among good golfers, that the shoulders and arms should move on the same plane...[t]rying to marry your arms to your shoulders introduces too much body action into the shot, at the expense of clubhead speed (36)."

"As your legs and hips win the battle of the opposing forces, and pull springingly towards the target, swing your arms straight down before your shoulders spin. Never do anything that will inhibit a free arm-swing (47)."

"Think predominantly of swinging the clubhead down and through the ball with arms before your shoulders unwind (49)."

Here's Tiger working on a drill (from the Haney days):

Here's Stephen Ames working with Tiger's current coach, Sean Foley (watch from 2:00-2:09):

At the Manzella Academy, the same thing is taught via the idea of left arm replacement while keeping the back turned to the target for as long as possible. Brian also posted this before (emphasis added):

One of my students hitting a TrackMan verified 300.9 yard carry tee shot. His lesson featured strengthening his grip, taking his angle of attack with the driver from 2° down to 2° up, and keeping his arms as under his shoulders during the swing as he could.



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I think lateral bend can help in accomplishing the objective but there is the danger of creating path issues with the wrong student. It depends...

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

i like foley's quote at about 1:50 about a coach being there for "exaggeration management" once the concept has been introduced and understood.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Dr. Kwon: 10° steeper hand plane, and 10° flatter shoulder plane, then the FUNCTIONAL SWING PLANE (sweetspot plane from parallel to parallel).

 

[Mike Richardson]

Can someone please explain: keeping his arms as under his shoulders during the swing as he could.

 

[bluebird]

Someone can correct if this gets misrepesented. Notice how the arms/hands stay under his shoulder package. Swaying or sliding or tugging the shoulders ( lateral movement to or fro ) can wreck path and power of the arms/hands.

 

[tongzilla]

can someone help me understand/define the difference between positive and negative alpha around the release/impact area?

seems to me that any force that moves the clubhshaft closer to the target is positive alpha?

 

[Brian Manzella]

seems to me that any force that moves the clubhshaft closer to the target is positive alpha?

What if you applied NEGATIVE alpha at the top of the grip?

 

[tongzilla]

What if you applied NEGATIVE alpha at the top of the grip?

If I set up at address and simply move the grip end back, that's all that's going to happen. Are you implying the clubhead should move toward the target?

 

[Brian Manzella]

If I set up at address and simply move the grip end back, that's all that's going to happen. Are you implying the clubhead should move toward the target?

If the coupling point (point between the hands) does not move, negative alpha (movement of the top of the grip away from the target) absolutely makes the clubhead end go forward.

AND THAT HAPPENS IN EVERY DECNET GOLF SWING.

 

[natep]

If the coupling point (point between the hands) does not move, negative alpha (movement of the top of the grip away from the target) absolutely makes the clubhead end go forward.

AND THAT HAPPENS IN EVERY DECNET GOLF SWING.

Interesting......I remember reading a post on another forum by a golf pro who worked for a Ballard guy in CA who took lessons from Mike Austin in the late 80's....he said that Austin told him that when he really wanted to kill the ball he would push backwards on the top of the grip with his left hand through impact.