Why speak a foreign language??

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C

cdog

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For those of you that are A.I.'s, or those wanting to become an A.I., or a golf instructor,
do you or will you tell your students what they are doing wrong, and tell them how to do
correctly using TGM terms?
If you do, will they understand you? If they don't understand you, is it their fault or yours?
What makes a person a GREAT teacher? Is it because they know all their is about the subject, or they can quickly figure out problems and find a solution?
Or is it they can COMMUNICATE it so the person they are talking to understand and GETS it?
Lets say YOU need a lesson, you have 1 problem that you can't get solved on your own or the people you have seen so far can't help you with it, but there is this 1 person that has the answer, so you go to him and show him your swing, he smiles knowing he can help you, so he tells you exactly what your doing wrong and why, and even how to fix it, only problem is, he tells you in a foreign language, is it your job as the student to go get a book and try to figure out what the guys you just went to for help just told you??

TGM gets a bad rap for this very reason. Did Homer write the book for the avg weekend golfer? Does Homer say in the book its the job of the A.I. to communicate to their students
using TGM terms only? I don't think he did. Most people study the book for years and still have tons of question about the meaning.

If it wasn't Homer's wish then why is it done all the time on these golf discussion boards most of the time??
Someone comes to the boards for advice and they are given an answer that they can't understand. WHY?
I've seen it done dozens and dozens of times, a person asks a question, and they are given a line directly out of the book, thats great, except the person probably wont understand it, so then it's meaningless.

Those of us that come here, and to the TGM boards are FAR FAR from the norm, we do it because we have a drive to understand, and hell, we want to become as good as possible.

For those that come to see you or ask your advice that are just casual golfers, just wanting to make contact with the ball and when they do not have it curve off the planet, would it have been Homer's intention for you to try to completely try to rebuild Joe duffer's swing, or give him simple advice , maybe 1 or 2 changes to give Joe a chance? After all as WE all know Joe probably WON't practice what he is gonna be taught very much, or at all.

The reason for the rant (it had been building) is someone came in with a question for OUR (the people posting here) help, the person was told he had an inferior procedure and it was ok to use it, but don't expect to get anywhere with it, and he was told this using TGM terms......if TGM'ers want to get more accepted, they need to realize they are cutting their own throats so to speak, speak so Joe duffer can understand, and don't be so high and mighty
saying this way is the only way, after all, how many ways did HOMER give us in that little yellow book????
 
6

6bee1dee

New
Using the terminology is important but useless if the student doesn't understand. It is VERY important that the student, if they choose to stay with TGM, learn the terms.

In a 1980 Master class taught by Homer Kelley, he told his students that the terminology has to be used as it is written. You can use any word, device, training aid to help you describe or teach the term but NOT to REPLACE the word. Homer felt that he selected the right word to identify the action and it would help communication among students and AIs anywhere in the world. You could teach over the phone if and because both parties would absolutely understand each other. Another stroke of genius from Mr. Kelley. Does it take a little extra work? Yes, but look at your ball flight.
 
B

bsbsbs

New
But this is not the TGM forum this is the BRIAN MANZELLA forum, I first came to this forum because of an article I had read on Brian. Nowhere in Brians instruction articles have I ever seen TGM chapter and verse quoted. There may be common terms used to describe an action. Brian is a GSED and he doesn't feel the need to go along saying well thats 5-d-j and x-y-z and your 2-v-4 just isn't lined up like its suppose to be.

I appreciate what the yellow book has to offer but I feel that some of the people who visit here would rather impress you with there knowledge of the book than really contribute to this forum. I have no problem refering back to the book for clarification, but how does it FEEEEL.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Great post cdog...

There ARE TGM terms that you can use that won't 'scare' people away....but you really need to 'sneak' 'em in in real world golf lessons.
 
6

6bee1dee

New
quote:Originally posted by bsbsbs

But this is not the TGM forum this is the BRIAN MANZELLA forum, I first came to this forum because of an article I had read on Brian. Nowhere in Brians instruction articles have I ever seen TGM chapter and verse quoted. There may be common terms used to describe an action. Brian is a GSED and he doesn't feel the need to go along saying well thats 5-d-j and x-y-z and your 2-v-4 just isn't lined up like its suppose to be.

I appreciate what the yellow book has to offer but I feel that some of the people who visit here would rather impress you with there knowledge of the book than really contribute to this forum. I have no problem refering back to the book for clarification, but how does it FEEEEL.
Click to expand...

I thought it was Holenhole's forum, sorry. :)

I never list this as a TGM forum. There is some pure TGM teaching posted here, alot isn't. If you get an answer that you cannot follow, ask a good follow up question. Brian, Holenone really want to help everyone.
My two cents ... a little extra work using the book goes about thirty yards further down the fairway. Now that .... feels good. :D

I will be the first to admit that I felt all fog was lifted before attending Yoda and Chuck’s workshop. Fog was previously cleared but the workshop gave my "sight." For the first time I could see the fog was lifted. I wish, and so does Holenhole that everyone could attend a fog lifting hands on workshop. But in the meantime, ask ask ask.

Homer always felt that each student has a Computer-your brain- and an Incubator -where incomplete and underdeveloped concepts are stored waiting to be fulfilled. The process can't be hurry. No TGM moresl before its time. LOL. Read the first paragraph of 14-0. Another gem.

Yoda , I just missed breakfast, looks like McDonalds with the protestors down the street.
 
H

holenone

Banned
quote:Originally posted by cdog

The reason for the rant (it had been building) is someone came in with a question for OUR (the people posting here) help, the person was told he had an inferior procedure and it was ok to use it, but don't expect to get anywhere with it, and he was told this using TGM terms......
Click to expand...


Once again, there is misinformation and there is truth.

Here is the exact response (by MizunoJoe) that triggered Cdog's "building rant:"

"You have a "pivot controlled hands" procedure. You rely on a consistent pivot to reliably bring the hands into the impact. What you are doing is as good a "key" as any for this method. The alternative is a "hands controlled pivot" procedure, which provides a SPECIFIC "key", which is driving a pressure point in the hands toward the ball."

As is clear to anyone who can read:

1. At no time was the poster told he had an "inferior procedure."

2. At no time was he told he "don't expect to get anywhere with it."

3. The term 'pivot controlled hands' was used. But does anyone need a dictionary for any one of those three words? I don't think so. But, just in case the reader might not know what he meant, MizunoJoe carefully, simply and without a hint of condescension explained the concept in his next sentence. He expressed his view that the swing 'key' being used was adequate. He then offered an alternative to the current swing -- Hands Controlled Pivot. Once again, he defined the term quite simply and then signed off.

So, The Truth is that at no time was there a reference to an "inferior procedure." At no time was the poster told "don't expect to get anywhere with it." And the only TGM jargon used was really self-explantory, but even this was carefully explained.

And what did MizunoJoe get for his thoughtful reply? Flame mail. A disrespectful, sarcastic and hateful Flame Mail. And this was followed up with more of the same.

MizunoJoe has contributed greatly to the value of this site. He is consistenly there for those in need of sound advice. And now you offer him the same "stone for bread" exchange.

Personally, I think you should be ashamed of yourself and extend to Mizuno Joe a much deserved apology.

Think about it.
 
P

Powerdraw

New
quote:Originally posted by holenone

Oh, sorry.

Dieu me pardonnera. C'est son metier.

God will forgive me. It's his job.

:)
Click to expand...

hehehe, aucun problème Yoda, je suis certain que Dieu t'appuies dans tes efforts de garder l'âme de Homer vivant
 
M

MizunoJoe

New
holen1,

Thanks for the kind words. I was thinking that he was probably talking about the "Depth" post, and thought about responding that I hadn't said(or even thought) those things, but then decided, oh forget it. I couldn't have stated it as well as you did anyway. Actually, it's no concern, and no apologies are necessary.
 
E

EdZ

New
I don't think that was really directed at Mizuno Joe. Not the way I read it. Just a general frustration with 'some' of the TGM approach to communication, which can be dogmatic. Perhaps Mizuno's post just highlighted the concern (in tone, if not content, the web is tough sometimes).

There is nothing wrong with the TGM 'language', but just as a lawyer or musician or doctor has, TGM uses different language than the average folks. All well and good.

But just as with any other profession, the skill is in communication, which includes sensetivity to where someone else may be coming from.

It is too bad that some TGM folks are not able to communicate as well as others, but then that holds for all fields, not just golf.

Bottom line, how to make the concepts clear and teach them to others. I think Holenone does a fine job, as do many on this, and other boards.
 
T

Triad

New
quote:Originally posted by cdog

For those of you that are A.I.'s, or those wanting to become an A.I., or a golf instructor,
do you or will you tell your students what they are doing wrong, and tell them how to do
correctly using TGM terms?
If you do, will they understand you? If they don't understand you, is it their fault or yours?
What makes a person a GREAT teacher? Is it because they know all their is about the subject, or they can quickly figure out problems and find a solution?
Or is it they can COMMUNICATE it so the person they are talking to understand and GETS it?
Lets say YOU need a lesson, you have 1 problem that you can't get solved on your own or the people you have seen so far can't help you with it, but there is this 1 person that has the answer, so you go to him and show him your swing, he smiles knowing he can help you, so he tells you exactly what your doing wrong and why, and even how to fix it, only problem is, he tells you in a foreign language, is it your job as the student to go get a book and try to figure out what the guys you just went to for help just told you??

TGM gets a bad rap for this very reason. Did Homer write the book for the avg weekend golfer? Does Homer say in the book its the job of the A.I. to communicate to their students
using TGM terms only? I don't think he did. Most people study the book for years and still have tons of question about the meaning.

If it wasn't Homer's wish then why is it done all the time on these golf discussion boards most of the time??
Someone comes to the boards for advice and they are given an answer that they can't understand. WHY?
I've seen it done dozens and dozens of times, a person asks a question, and they are given a line directly out of the book, thats great, except the person probably wont understand it, so then it's meaningless.

Those of us that come here, and to the TGM boards are FAR FAR from the norm, we do it because we have a drive to understand, and hell, we want to become as good as possible.

For those that come to see you or ask your advice that are just casual golfers, just wanting to make contact with the ball and when they do not have it curve off the planet, would it have been Homer's intention for you to try to completely try to rebuild Joe duffer's swing, or give him simple advice , maybe 1 or 2 changes to give Joe a chance? After all as WE all know Joe probably WON't practice what he is gonna be taught very much, or at all.

The reason for the rant (it had been building) is someone came in with a question for OUR (the people posting here) help, the person was told he had an inferior procedure and it was ok to use it, but don't expect to get anywhere with it, and he was told this using TGM terms......if TGM'ers want to get more accepted, they need to realize they are cutting their own throats so to speak, speak so Joe duffer can understand, and don't be so high and mighty
saying this way is the only way, after all, how many ways did HOMER give us in that little yellow book????
Click to expand...

I have worked with two excellent AI's over the past couple of years. In a lesson these guys can easily drill down into the Book in response to a specific question, or not really mention TGM at all.

In a sense, it HAS been like learning a new language, but it is not a particularly hard language to learn. You already know the words, just not how they are applied to the specific discipline of a G.O.L.F stroke.

Like any language, you begin with simple concepts and delve deeper into the nuances and details as the students skill, or desire to learn, advances.

For instance, on my first ever visit to an AI, we began by building a precision grip. He looked at my swing tendencies and determined that a swinging procedure would be a good stroke pattern for me.

He didn't tell me that he was building me a 10-2-B Strong Single Action grip, he just told me how to grip the club properly. (I must say that it felt very foreign to me at the time).

The grip naturaly evolved into a discussion about the Pressure Points and thus, my first basic intro to TGM terminology. This led to the importance of monitoring the HANDS and so on. Then, LAG (Hmmm, new term) Impact Position (Hmmm, new term), Plane Line (Hmmm, new term).

The process was evolutionary, and certainly not rocket science.

I think when TGMers communciate with each other (like they often do on this board) they use specific book references to facilitate a concise and accurate discussion, in the same way that any group of people fluent in a shared language would do.

This certainly does not mean that they tend to 'dump' this stuff on their students. They do, however, sometimes use specific Book references to describe key points since, in most, cases the Book references are the most accurate and precise way to explain a concept. I have NEVER heard my AI talk to me about 6-B-1-D, but we have discussed Extensor Action many times (Hmmm, new term).

As my knowledge has improved ( as well as my G.O.L.F stroke :)) I now have more detailed TGM questions and I get more detailed TGM answers.

STL,
Triad
 
C

cdog

New
The MizunoJoe depth post was what made me write the post, BUT it was by NO means the only one, as i said, it has been building, not just from here but from other sites. TGM'ers tend to give a holier than thou response to people. And for the record, i rarely get into pissing matches on web sites, i come here and to others to try to learn. I read TGM the book to learn, i go to Chuck's site to try to learn, i bought chuck's tapes, Brian's tapes, Bobby Schaeffer's tapes, Bill McKinny's tapes, TGM people all, to try to learn and understand.
I go to other web sites and TGM is put down at times, i hate that, because i do think it is a great source of info.

Also for the record i did NOT mean for anyone to send any kind of flame mail to ANYONE. Joe has answered some of my questions here, that is one reason i didnt mention anyones name. I have e mailed several people to talk about meaning, ask for definitions and to discuss certain aspects i dont quite get, so JOE, if you got any mail what so ever from something i posted, i am sorry.
 
D

David Alford

New
Holenone wrote:
>And what did MizunoJoe get for his thoughtful reply? Flame mail. A disrespectful, sarcastic and hateful Flame Mail. And this was followed up with more of the same.<

Now that's an interesting post, Holenone.

Brian wrote:

< Hey Guys...We all like each other here, this isn't fgi...>

Also very interesting.
 
W

wally888

New
quote:Originally posted by David Alford

Holenone wrote:
>And what did MizunoJoe get for his thoughtful reply? Flame mail. A disrespectful, sarcastic and hateful Flame Mail. And this was followed up with more of the same.<

Now that's an interesting post, Holenone.

Brian wrote:

< Hey Guys...We all like each other here, this isn't fgi...>

D.A.
You only get one chance to make a 1st. impression! Suggest you change user name, start over!

Also very interesting.
Click to expand...
 
M

mb6606

New
My #1 golf site
TGM being a close second (although a lot less activity).
Way to go go Brian. Life works in strange ways.
 
rwh

rwh

New
quote:Originally posted by bsbsbs

But this is not the TGM forum this is the BRIAN MANZELLA forum, I first came to this forum because of an article I had read on Brian. Nowhere in Brians instruction articles have I ever seen TGM chapter and verse quoted. There may be common terms used to describe an action. Brian is a GSED and he doesn't feel the need to go along saying well thats 5-d-j and x-y-z and your 2-v-4 just isn't lined up like its suppose to be.

I appreciate what the yellow book has to offer but I feel that some of the people who visit here would rather impress you with there knowledge of the book than really contribute to this forum. I have no problem refering back to the book for clarification, but how does it FEEEEL.
Click to expand...

I felt the same as you --- at first. And I concur that Brian is a great teacher who doesn't use a lot precise book references in his posts; he knows the material, though, and he can communicate about TGM on any level you wish -- rank novice to gradute PhD and all stops in between.

With study, I have come to appreciate the precision of TGM and the precision with which questions may be asked and answered on the internet; for example,"Follow Through" is a pretty important position in TGM, and that term means one thing to a TGM'er and (usually) means something different to a non-TGM'er. Not only does a reference provide precision, it serves as a courtesy and time saver to those of us who want to check it out in the book.

Regarding "FEEEEL", Mr. Kelley emphasized "Monitoring", i.e., you learn/do the objective components of the swing -- location, condition, direction, etc. -- and then become aware of what that location, condition, direction feels like to you. So, the WHAT TO DO must be learned before FEEL becomes relevant and/or reliable. Here is what Mr. Kelley said about doing it this way: "As you apply this System you may suddenly realize you are now actuallydoing what you had always merely thought you were doing."
 
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