Why Tiger misses to the right now

[birdie_man]

It's flatter......his takeaway is not above Plane anymore.

That doesn't mean he doesn't end up on the TSP at the End of his swing tho (there's a shift about halfway back.....once the right elbow stops bending the hands go more UP....the right arm lifts).

 

[dbl]

quote:Originally posted by jap4s

Is Tiger's swing flatter?

Read NAT's and Jim's response earlier. I meant flatter in terms of pointing to the right of the target line compared to something orthodox (although there might be some SP folk who wind up with lower hands AND pointing at the plane line - to some degree who cares?).

Look at that picture provided on page 2 from Doral. It's arguable his hands are above the TSP and that his plane's intersection with the ground is way to the right of the target line. So, iow, his plane is flatter than it would be if he had his plane intersect the ground at the target line.

 

[dbl]

Hey, maybe those two planes is why he does his giant squat! ...To get his plane line back onto something like the target line.

 

[jap4s]

If you are referring to the shaft plane, his swing absolutely is above this plane. Still waiting on how to measure forearm rotation.

 

[dbl]

You will need to learn about planes.

As far as forearm rotation, consider a plane which goes through your knees and another plane which goes through your head. The left forearm will need lots more rotation to get the left wrist onto the knee plane. As far as technically being able to measure forearm rotation, you first have to agree on this understanding. If so, then the next question I'd ask is what the purpose of measurement is. If the only question is about Tiger's over-rotation, then an agreement in principle has been reached. If not, I'm not sure I can help further. But even if you agree and just want to establish a method of measuring forearm rotation for all golfers and postures, I would recommend working on something else. For a given golfer, the differing amounts of forearm rotation for different planes is hopefully clear.

 

[jap4s]

My question is in regards to how Jim determined that Tiger was overrotating his forearm thus missing the ball to the right. Jim stated that this was the cause. Trying to figure out how he came to this conclusion. Was it based on what he saw on the TV? Did he draw lines on the screen? What role did the camera angle play? How does one measure forearm rotation in 2D?
I don't think that my question is that complicated? How did Jim arrive at his conclusion?

 

[dbl]

Jim will hopefully step in and say.

But it's just a fact that if he rotates his left arm so that the wrist gets on the congruent flat plane at the top, that then in shifting to a downswing plane which allows him to hit the ball, he has extra rotation to do than the downswing plane would ordinarily necessitate.

So really, this conclusion can be made from logic and geometry.

 

[dbl]

J, just wanted to give you something helpful in the way of planes. Forgive me if you have this info already.

Brian made some very illustrative diagrams with common tgm planes in this thread:
http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1469

For TW, with the Hardy/Haney congruent planes, consider a plane for him in which the intersection with the ground is to the right of the target line. For instance, something like (congruent to) that "Plane of the Shoulders Top"

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Sorry, my computer access is limited right now.

As far as figuring out rotation and plane, you have to take into a lot of things when you watch it on TV such as:

camera angle
stance (square/open/closed)
shot shape he's attempting

Those are just some of the things. In the "ideal" backswing you want the butt end of the club pointing at the plane line or an extension of it. If you are swinging and allowing the left arm to "turn to the plane" three things can happen:

1) proper rotation will keep the butt end of the club always pointing at the line or become parallel to it (hip high and parallel at the end of backswing if you go that far)
2) in-sufficient roation will keep the butt end of the club inside the plane line during the backswing and if you don't allow it to rotate further up in the backswing you will end up with a bent left arm, possibly double-cocking, "cross the line" and a load of other things. However a lot of pros will have the butt end of the club inside the plane line during part of the backswing and THEN allow the forearm rotation near the end of the backswing to get to the turned shoulder plane.
3) Too much rotation which will cause the butt end of the club to point outside the plane line and usually this will not be fixed in the backswing but will have to be compensated for in the downswing. Too much rotation usually causes flatter, laid off looking clubshafts, thin shots, flipping, swinging "too far to the right," and again a load of other things.

-----

IF you have paid close attention to Tiger's swing changes with Haney over all of this time he has gone from a REALLY over rotated left arm to just a slightly over rotated left arm. Evidence of this is when Tiger won the Buick Invitational (i think last year) when he was on 18 and went for the green in 2. He had this horrendously laid off, over rotated forearm, backswing that caused him to come underplane on the downswing and "wipe" across the ball. The result of the shot was a very high weak fade that went just to the right of the pond. Very lucky and he even admitted it after the tourney.

----

For those of you who record or Tivo golf events i want you to try and find as close to a "Down the line" view of Tiger as you can with an iron. You will get 1 or 2 during a round. It's also important to catch him using a square stance.

Then simply stop his the video at the end of his backswing. Now draw a line from the shaft to the ball. You can't, unless it's crooked ; because he has over rotated his left forearm and is a little flat and thus the line will point OUTSIDE the ball.

Now step through the video until he transitions to the downswing then pause it again. If he hit a great shot you will now see the butt end of the club pointing at the ball. The only way this is possible is if he rotated his left forearm back some during the downswing.

-----

I'm out of town all this week and probably won't be responding much. Maybe next weekend i'll take some pictures of what i'm talking about.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by dbl

Hey, maybe those two planes is why he does his giant squat! ...To get his plane line back onto something like the target line.

He squats because he keeps his head too high and doesn't set up with enough knee bend. Your body will always seek the position it should be in at impact. Setup as close to that as you can and you will only have a small amount of head movement.

 

[nevermind]

Jim, in the Sit Down video answer thread I made mention of knee flex at address and the sit down position. You basically said that you don't want to set up with as much knee bend as you want at impact, it would cause various problems. What has changed since then?

 

[Brian Manzella]

THE PROBLEM IS THAT IF YOU START THE DOWNSWING WITH FORCE POINTING WELL FURTHER FROM THE GOLFER THAN THE REAL PLANE LINE...

THE GOLFER HAS TO</u> WORK 'UNDER' THEIR ORIGINAL FORCE, AND IN THE PROCESS, GET UNDER THE SWEETSPOT AS WELL AS POSSIBLY SWINGING TO FAR TO THE RIGHT.

FORE RIGHT!

 

[Non-AuthorizedTGM]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

THE PROBLEM IS THAT IF YOU START THE DOWNSWING WITH FORCE POINTING WELL FURTHER FROM THE GOLFER THAN THE REAL PLANE LINE...

THE GOLFER HAS TO</u> WORK 'UNDER' THEIR ORIGINAL FORCE, AND IN THE PROCESS, GET UNDER THE SWEETSPOT AS WELL AS POSSIBLY SWINGING TO FAR TO THE RIGHT.

FORE RIGHT!

Preach on ....Preacher!!!!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yeahyouright!

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

quote:Originally posted by nevermind

Jim, in the Sit Down video answer thread I made mention of knee flex at address and the sit down position. You basically said that you don't want to set up with as much knee bend as you want at impact, it would cause various problems. What has changed since then?

If you setup with a lot of knee bend you are going to make a very level hip turn and it will also effect the shoulder turn and in the end, influence what you do on the downswing.

IMO when you setup with the right amount of knee bend at address and still go through "the sit down" your knee flex will increase some, not a ton, but some. Setup with barely any and you will "sit down" a lot.
Setup with a lot and you will probably have to bend down and really "bounce up" through impact.