Zero shift swing impossible?

[spktho]

That brings use to the "cause" of the shift. As the left back/shoulder muscles are put on stretch via the hands crossing the front of the body - you can only go so far - and then to continue the motion you get a larger portion of arm elevation and clavicle elevation. Simple put in regards to where the hands move in relation to the body- it's across and then up.

If instead of pulling across and then having that effort turn to more elevation - assume you lifted your left hand from address out in front of you so that the left arm was parallel to the ground- and then brought it across your body to the "top" position- you'd notice that you eliminated or couldn't engage as many back muscles to help you during the downswing. So the hands move across the body and then as they run out of room get pulled up. If you move the hand up and then across - as in my example - you don't engage the lat muscles etc. for you to pull you down.

The action of the left arm moving across the chest is called adduction. A normal motion of moving the arm across the chest with a golf club also incorporates some internal rotation of the humerus. Adduction and internal rotation are actions of the lats and parts of the deltoids and rotator cuff muscles. So, in your example the lats and shoulder muscles are "activated" in both cases.

I think the cause has more to do with using two levers(arms) that have origins(shoulder joints) so far apart coupled with a rotation of the "T" shape made by the spine to the shoulders relationship as well as the action of the elbows and wrists that make it easier to make a "double or triple plane shift" motion when holding on to a stick(golf club). On the downswing the tilt of the axis that allows for precision and a more powerful delivery of the clubhead also adds to the plane shift(ing).

On the issue of power one may have to look more into length of travel for the hands and club head which allows a longer time for muscles and the pivot to accelerate the club head as well as the use of gravity. But, there are some shortish backswings that produce a lot of power due to float loading--but the float loading may cause a plane shift.

 

[birdie_man]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2FBoHmq_h8[/media]

Go to the 1:16 mark.

Moe could have easily been a single planer - he is one of few that shifts up to his matching setup/downswing plane.

Clearly If Moe had spent a little time in a plane board he would have had no problem becoming a true single planner.

Man...you show a video of how Moe Norman is NOT a zero shifter and then you actually go on to analyze how he could be one if he tried?

I don't want to be rude, but if Moe Norman is not good enough or a good enough start, you may need to watch some more video of golfing greats. Or even of your son. He is doing well. Or at least was when I saw video of him.

(the swings you posted where he is hitting into a net in the garage)

 

[Mike O]

The action of the left arm moving across the chest is called adduction. A normal motion of moving the arm across the chest with a golf club also incorporates some internal rotation of the humerus. Adduction and internal rotation are actions of the lats and parts of the deltoids and rotator cuff muscles. So, in your example the lats and shoulder muscles are "activated" in both cases.

I think the cause has more to do with using two levers(arms) that have origins(shoulder joints) so far apart coupled with a rotation of the "T" shape made by the spine to the shoulders relationship as well as the action of the elbows and wrists that make it easier to make a "double or triple plane shift" motion when holding on to a stick(golf club). On the downswing the tilt of the axis that allows for precision and a more powerful delivery of the clubhead also adds to the plane shift(ing).

On the issue of power one may have to look more into length of travel for the hands and club head which allows a longer time for muscles and the pivot to accelerate the club head as well as the use of gravity. But, there are some shortish backswings that produce a lot of power due to float loading--but the float loading may cause a plane shift.

Let me add another idea to my post- because you are bent over from the waist - the upper left arm eventually runs into the chest wall and then in order for a longer swing to take place it slides up the chest wall- creating a plane shift.

If you are able to - please elaborate and clarify your paragraph on the "cause" - you mention alot of components shoulders, elbows, wrists, spine but it wasn't clear on how all of that would require a shift versus a zero plane shift.

Thanks

 

[spktho]

Let me add another idea to my post- because you are bent over from the waist - the upper left arm eventually runs into the chest wall and then in order for a longer swing to take place it slides up the chest wall- creating a plane shift.

If you are able to - please elaborate and clarify your paragraph on the "cause" - you mention alot of components shoulders, elbows, wrists, spine but it wasn't clear on how all of that would require a shift versus a zero plane shift.

Thanks

Swinging the golf club on a single plane (which, I think is what we're talking about) is much easier using only one arm. Why is it easier compared to using two arms? Because there is only one lever attached to the club with a one arm swing. Add the second arm and based on our anatomy, the trailing arm has to bend and fold. How the elbow, wrist, and shoulder bends can allow for the golf club to be swung on one plane, but add in all the other joints that are needed for the golf swing as well as "optimal impact alignments" like axis tilt and it makes it more difficult to do. I don't know the exact numbers, but it would be safe to assume that if any of the joints involved bent at angles that were say only 2* different from a single plane swing, that would be enough to cause a plane shift.

I could sum up my thoughts by saying the more moving parts there are to control, the more difficult it becomes to control all of them with a high degree of precision.

 

[spktho]

The ball and ball flight laws don't care how many plane shifts were made though.

 

[greenfree]

The ball and ball flight laws don't care how many plane shifts were made though.

They do if it affects them. It seems that the ball doesn't care about a lot of things, i think it does, because anything that's going to eventually affect impact conditions will matter to The Ball. Why else do we keep trying to do all these positions etc? Must have an impact on impact.

 

[spktho]

They do if it affects them. It seems that the ball doesn't care about a lot of things, i think it does, because anything that's going to eventually affect impact conditions will matter to The Ball. Why else do we keep trying to do all these positions etc? Must have an impact on impact.

Fair enough. Which is better on a 240 yard par 3--a 5w and a 2 putt or two 5 irons and a 1 putt. They both are 3's on the score card.

 

[greenfree]

Fair enough. Which is better on a 240 yard par 3--a 5w and a 2 putt or two 5 irons and a 1 putt. They both are 3's on the score card.

Is that a trick question? Okay i'll bite i say a 5w and 2 putts. That's scoring, your still going to need decent impact, hitting 2 five irons, and the ball will care. I mean you can hack it all over and 1 putt every green can't you? Your talking scoring, i'm talking impact, you know like the difference between playing golf or playing golf swing.

 

[spktho]

Is that a trick question? Okay i'll bite i say a 5w and 2 putts.

That's the one I would pick too!

 

[spktho]

It was a double shift swing.

 

[greenfree]

It was a double shift swing.

Yeah i thought so and impact must have been good and the ball said: see i do care how you smash me.

 

[mb6606]

Man...you show a video of how Moe Norman is NOT a zero shifter and then you actually go on to analyze how he could be one if he tried?

I don't want to be rude, but if Moe Norman is not good enough or a good enough start, you may need to watch some more video of golfing greats. Or even of your son. He is doing well. Or at least was when I saw video of him.

(the swings you posted where he is hitting into a net in the garage)

The subject of the thread is "Zero Shift Swing Impossible?". My response and opinion is that it can be done. Setup a plane board on the turned shoulder plane (your setup hands will be very high) and swing away.

 

[birdie_man]

When you put it in that light (as per the thread title as you say) it doesn't seem as bad. "Possible or not." I suppose I was thinking of it in a different way. "Functional or not."

No plane board...just you hitting balls...AND seeing how well they fly.

At the time I may or may not have had you correctly but all I know is Moe swung the way he did for a reason.

 

[savydan]

Moderator: Please close this thread.