Zeroing out on Trackman

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Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Even when it requires you to aim 20 yards right?

Yeah, why is this a big deal? If you know your swing and where its going and why, how can this be a big deal? You of all people should know. Trackman is giving us the keys that we've been looking for forever. Aim right, hit up. How much simpler can it be?
 
Yeah, why is this a big deal? If you know your swing and where its going and why, how can this be a big deal? You of all people should know. Trackman is giving us the keys that we've been looking for forever. Aim right, hit up. How much simpler can it be?

Kevin, you questioned the comfort of aiming left on a similar premise?
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
At some point or at some speed hitting up on it must be somewhat accurate. The LPGA is full of it. This might go along withjariyard's claim that is has to do with speed. This is a diminishing returns idea if I've ever heard of one.

There is nothing that says you should lose accuracy with speed.

Hogan said "the harder I swung, the better it worked"
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Kevin, you questioned the comfort of aiming left on a similar premise?

Yes I did. I was just wondering aloud if its uncomfortable to aim left with a driver. Its purely just a hunch that it might be more comfortable to aim right and hit up than it is to aim left and hit down. Purely just an opinion.

But as with everything, whatever works fro the player.

Recently I had a guy with about 155 ball speed hitting 5 degrees up. That wasnt enough ball speed to keep it in the air at 14 degrees launch. The ball just fell out of the sky. So i actually de-upped him to 1 or 2 degress to optimize. There are so many variables when you bring in the human condition (ie, what is easier, comfortable, risky). If you score better hitting ten degrees down, do it.
 
I must be dumb or something........whats the risk??

That swinging upwards is more biomechanically reliable than hitting down on a driver. The player will need to be convinced that he can swing up 2 degrees with greater reliability than when he hits down 1.3 degrees (PGA Tour Avg).
 
Question 1

Any further thoughts on Question 1?

Nice thread topic.

Ref Q1, I asked this same question a while back. I've always thought there was more margin for error trying to move a shot in one particular direction. I think everybody has a certain tendency for right-to-left or left-to-right, even if it changes a bit on a daily "feel" basis. The answer I got was to work toward the "straight" ball.

I think it's fairly straight forward to groove the path a few degrees to one side or the another and allow for +/- deviation of the face to get the same general shot. Anyway, I'm still sort of evaluating the merits of both.

On Q2, most of the discussion on hitting up has entailed hitting a decent sized draw. I think this fits more in line with attempting to move the ball in a particular direction, vs. trying to hit it straight all the time. What's the data look like for folks hitting up and cutting the driver?

Would be curious to see the trend for Q1 and what the better players are trying to accomplish. Thx.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I dont think there is any doubt it gets a little dicey when you hit up and try to fade it. No question. I think a straight ball or a draw is the easiest to hit with this method. I think a level attack with a leftward planeline would be much easier.
 
Couples

I dont think there is any doubt it gets a little dicey when you hit up and try to fade it. No question. I think a straight ball or a draw is the easiest to hit with this method. I think a level attack with a leftward planeline would be much easier.

Agreed.

What about somebody like Couples (fader)? You think he's catching it around low point (level attack) or slightly on the down as he moves the plane line back to the right?

Duval?

Sorry if this is a bit off topic Jari.
 

ggsjpc

New
Would like to hear others opinions on aiming to zero out the face and path on Trackman, as you might know I work for Trackman and have a decent understanding of the key concepts that are promoted by the literature and in using the system. Also a question about hitting up.

Question 1:

Zero Face/Path - Does this reduce the margin for error? e.g If you have a player repeatedly hitting zero path it will only take a small variance either side to produce opposite shot shapes and for that matter only a small miss-hit to alter shape due to gear effect.

If however you produce a consistent path a few degrees either side of zero, whether it be in/out or out/in, you are creating a 'window' for face angle to slot into. e.g Path -3.0º (out/in) would create a 2-3º window for a shot that at worst goes straight or slight over fade.

Question 2:

Hitting Up - Hitting up does not reduce Spin Rate directly but allows a less lofted driver to be used which does. Is the risk worth it?

Let's talk D-Plane. The smaller the difference between Attack Angle and Dynamic loft the greater the tilt of the plane for identical face/path numbers. For example, a player who hits down 1º and has a dynamic loft of 10º has a less tilted D-Plane than a player who hits up 4º with the same dynamic loft.

Below is an illustration of the change in tilt.

Before anyone decides to pull apart the image it is for illustrative purposes, it is not definitive by any means.

LessLoft.jpg

We have the most talented players in the world hitting down 1º on average, producing spin in excess of 2500rpm. The same guys that have the most control over path and face, hitting up is obviously not worth the risk for them, is it for Mr. Average?

I've thought about this for a long time and I still don't have an answer I like. I don't see an advantage or disadvantage to either. Won't the curve on the ball be the same with similar shaped D planes? I think the answer comes down to where you aim not how you swing. Convince me. I haven't heard something that has yet.
 
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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Ok....

Ask a specific question, John.

I'll give THE definitive answer. Then you can reply.

You might not like the answer, so make sure you ask the question you WANT answered.
 
You can still hit up and cut it.

This is my go to shot. If I have to hit a fairway and there are no trees immediatly to my left, I set up a bit left, slightly open my stance & shoulders, & tee the ball high & off my front toe. I almost know for sure I can hit the fairway with that set-up. But if I can't set up for the cut...:( Lets just say I'm working on that with Damon!
 

ggsjpc

New
Ask a specific question, John.

I'll give THE definitive answer. Then you can reply.

You might not like the answer, so make sure you ask the question you WANT answered.

I like all questions and all answers.

I may not agree with them all but I appreciate them.

I really don't have a problem with zeroing out.

I really don't have a problem with curving 'windows'.

I agree that what works for the player trumps all.

Because of the fact that many things work, I don't see how one is absolutely, without question better than the other.

However, that is boring so let me ask a question.

How many teachers today with trackman would destroy a guy like Bruce Lietzke?


Based on my understanding of Trackman newsletters, it is implied that zeroing out also creates a window.

What are the implications of uneven lies on the zeroed out window player vs the fade or draw window player?
 
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