Dariusz J.
New member
I wonder why...? It seems totally counterintuitive and against common sense. Usually, I'd let such a comment pass quickly, but if you say so -- it must be interesting why.
Cheers
Is Augusta—set up for The Masters—a good test of golf
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I wonder why...? It seems totally counterintuitive and against common sense. Usually, I'd let such a comment pass quickly, but if you say so -- it must be interesting why.
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Dariusz J.
New member
Easier said than done. OK, give me an example then how to separate good and accurate drivers of the tee from ball whackers then without thinking about penalizing the latter.
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BrendanC
New
For example, on a Par 4, use a well protected front left pin position combined with severe danger (thick rough, water or deep bunkers) to the right side of the fairway driver landing area.
Make the green shallow enough that if a player lays back to far off the tee, his second shot becomes very tough with anything over 6 or 7 iron.
No need for ridiculous rough off the tee, just make it so that the player must be long and precise off the tee to have a shot at birdie or easy par. Lay back or mishit the drive, and you struggle to make par.
What did you think of Oosthuizen's driving at Augusta? It was exceptional, often longer than Watson's. No flailing at the ball in that swing.
Make the green shallow enough that if a player lays back to far off the tee, his second shot becomes very tough with anything over 6 or 7 iron.
No need for ridiculous rough off the tee, just make it so that the player must be long and precise off the tee to have a shot at birdie or easy par. Lay back or mishit the drive, and you struggle to make par.
What did you think of Oosthuizen's driving at Augusta? It was exceptional, often longer than Watson's. No flailing at the ball in that swing.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Pin placements and angles into greens.
Dariusz J.
New member
A good point, but the question is if it is possible to do it each of the tournament days. Anyhow I like this approach because it promotes a good ballstriking and good course management. But so does real rough and it is easier to execute. Now, you want real rough to protect green and no real trough to protect fairway ? Tee shot should be of the same importance as approach shot.
You do not understand that real rough is also necessary instrument for very errant shots. The word ridiculous is good only for today's lack of rough.
And it must be like this - huge error = huge punishment (unless incidental luck). This is the essence of all sports.
FYI, I have nothing agaist length. I am against lack of control, consistency and accuracy.
Oosthuizen is a very good driver, much than I previously thought and better than the guy who won him.
Again, is it possible to prepare four different pin positions for each day ? Plus see above in my response to Brendan.
Cheers
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
One problem with rough is it penalizes a shot the same for missing the fairway by a yard or 20 yards.
Dariusz J.
New member
Well, the border must be somewhere. I know that the best solution would be to let rough grow continuously higher the further we are from the center of the fairway -- but it is not possible.
However, having a wide first cut plus a second cut and then real rough should be fair to players.
Cheers
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The is probably my favorite subject in golf outside of teaching and equipment.
Course design and set-up.
Here is one for you....
Let's take someone I will beat 90-95 times out of 100 but can play a little...my example is a young guy named Jared I know and have played with a decent amount.
If he plays two times a week for two months in the summer, and hits balls a few times, he will shoot 75 on a basic course if he plays good, but can go lower 9 holes at a time, and could be a really good player.
If we play Whistling Straits 10 times, he will be me twice probably, and 1 or 3 times maybe.
If we play Pacific Dunes he will pretty much never beat me. Maybe twice out of 100 rounds.
Here is another example:
If I play Pebble Beach 10 times from the resort tees, I will have a low round around par and a high round in the low 80's.
If I play English Turn 10 times from the blues, I will have a low round in the high 60's and a high round in the around 80.
If I play Pacific Grove Municipal 10 times, I will have a low round in the mid 60's and a high round in the mid 70's.
The last time I played Whistling Straits, I made 2 birdies, 2 bogeys, and 11 pars...
....three triples and a quad.
Bullturds.
Course design and set-up.
Here is one for you....
Let's take someone I will beat 90-95 times out of 100 but can play a little...my example is a young guy named Jared I know and have played with a decent amount.
If he plays two times a week for two months in the summer, and hits balls a few times, he will shoot 75 on a basic course if he plays good, but can go lower 9 holes at a time, and could be a really good player.
If we play Whistling Straits 10 times, he will be me twice probably, and 1 or 3 times maybe.
If we play Pacific Dunes he will pretty much never beat me. Maybe twice out of 100 rounds.
Here is another example:
If I play Pebble Beach 10 times from the resort tees, I will have a low round around par and a high round in the low 80's.
If I play English Turn 10 times from the blues, I will have a low round in the high 60's and a high round in the around 80.
If I play Pacific Grove Municipal 10 times, I will have a low round in the mid 60's and a high round in the mid 70's.
The last time I played Whistling Straits, I made 2 birdies, 2 bogeys, and 11 pars...
....three triples and a quad.
Bullturds.
gmbtempe
New
There is no better example of this than #11 on Saturday. The length of the hole and the trees on the right, combined with a back left pin left players with little chance to even hit the green as the penalty for a slight miss left was water. You could not get enough angle to to the right to hit a shot at the pin.
Dariusz J.
New member
Sorry, Brian but these names do not tell me much.
Correct me if I am wrong then, but as far as I understood, Whistling Straits is a very penal course, while Pacific Dunes not.
Then, if your winning percentage on a penal course diminishes it means that your ballstriking is not good enough (hence your triple and quad) to maintain your advantage over your worse but more consistent golfing friend. Which is fair, IMO.
If your golfing friend were not only worse but also less consistent, he would win one round per million with you.
That's how I see it.
Cheers
P.S. I have LOTS of experience on a VERY unforgiving and unfriendly course where below-5 players couldn't go below 90 and sometimes even below 100. So I know what I am talking about, FYI.
I guess we'd have to define "penal," but Pac Dunes is certainly a very hard course and in my limited experience it exemplifies Brian's point about separating players. I only played it once, but it was in December, with 35mph winds and 40 degree temperatures. I was playing with a friend who I usually beat by a few strokes. The day before we had played Bandon Dunes in milder weather and he had shot 81 while I shot 77. At Pac Dunes I shot a 79 (not even close to one of the lowest rounds of my life, but without doubt one of the best rounds of my life) and beat him by at least 30.
mgranato
New
I played this course while on a trip to visit the in-laws. It was in Jan, temps were low 40's, never seen it before, and shot 78. The course had lots of forced carries over water, lots of trees in places, and lots of tall heather in other places. It was one of the very few courses that required every club in the bag. A true complete kick in the teeth for 4 straight hours. The course was fair (for a bludgeoning) and was plenty penal, but it wasn't a test of daintily moving your ball from point to point demanding that you only be hitting from the fairway. It tested putting, recovery, approaches, driving with distance, patience, and vocabulary. It's an extreme example, but why isn't this a honest test of ability as is surgically cutting your way around a course like Harbor Town?
Shouldn't different courses ask different questions? And as long as there is a cup and a ball, aren't they all in the spirit of the game? I can play courses like the above all day, they're right up my alley. It's the short tree lined hall ways that I'm trying to get better at playing. Playing were I'm uncomfortable is a choice and a great gauge of improvement (or lack of). I do think it needs to go both ways, however. For every uncomfortable-three finger-bunted tee shot I'm asked to "place" on Fairway Freddy's microscopic home track, I'd like him to come out and really push his boundaries in the other direction. Uncomfortable works both ways, play really well and beat really good players out of your comfort zone... now that's real golf. Of which I hope to be able to play someday.
johnnymarlboro
New
8092 yards? Geez. Is it hard walking a course like that while carrying balls that big?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Thankfully, someone always GETS it.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Maybe i can put it a bit simpler:
I can take a friend of mine to a county course here in the chicago burbs and he may beat me, he may not beat me, or may come within a few shots. Course isn't terribly long, greens aren't terrible hard to putt on.
Take this same friend of mine to my other friends country club and i'll give him 8 shots easy; tee shots require proper placement to get proper angles into the greens and then you have to place your tee shot into the proper place on the green to have a realistic chance at par let alone birdie.
County course = wrong angle into green and wrong spot on green, might still make par.
Country club course = wrong angle into green and wrong spot on green, guaranteed bogey..most likely worse.
I can take a friend of mine to a county course here in the chicago burbs and he may beat me, he may not beat me, or may come within a few shots. Course isn't terribly long, greens aren't terrible hard to putt on.
Take this same friend of mine to my other friends country club and i'll give him 8 shots easy; tee shots require proper placement to get proper angles into the greens and then you have to place your tee shot into the proper place on the green to have a realistic chance at par let alone birdie.
County course = wrong angle into green and wrong spot on green, might still make par.
Country club course = wrong angle into green and wrong spot on green, guaranteed bogey..most likely worse.
Isn't this he same idea as Slope Rating?
Dariusz J.
New member
OK, good examples and I understand them all...but they're still misguided. We are talking about pros, damn. We want to separate excellent ballstrikers from mediocre ones in a specific level of play. What is the point of comparing a pro with 10 hcp amateur or a scratch player with a 12 hcp ?
All of you constantly underline how great Tour pros are. So you want me to believe that they can differ only by approach shots on tough pin placement ? What a joke. They should start to differ with tee shots first. Hogan won the toughest US open ever (relatively) in Oakmont not with birdies or putting or recovery shots ROFL. He won thanks to great and accurate driving, great approaches and great course management. Now it is enough to have a superb short game and putting to win an important event with a driving % less than 50%. What a friggin joke. And this is a future of golf ?
Mike, I liked your story. Being in Poland and playing sometimes in such weather conditions that almost noone on this board would play (not from a silly cart) I can also say what is real golf and what is real challenge. Although the course you presented is too long for me, I would love to play on it. Much better than playing on a roughless course where the whole game is around the greens only and approach-dependent.
Cheers
jimmyt
New
D, you are entitled to your opinion and if you were in America I would fight for your right to state that opinion.
Do you ever get tired of being the only one with that opinion!
Lastly if you are always standing alone with that opinion, Do you ever wonder why?
Not all of your opinions and feelings can't all be attributed to your up bringing and background! Many of us have similiar backgrounds, but don't use it as an excuse.
I'm really not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to understand. Have you heard the phrase "No Man is an Island". You quite often seem to be stranded on that island.
With respect,
Jim
Dariusz J.
New member
Jim, I was I am and will be independent on trends and not afraid to say unpopular things.
FYI, I am not alone (it is enough to look at other boards); I will tell you I predict I am not alone on this forum as well; I may appear to be alone who is not afraid to contradict opinions of some important people here. I bring arguments and often receive bullshit in exchange. Haven't you thought about it ?
The majority of such threads ends with no counterarguments from the part of this forum "majority" or with my declaration that I am, at least, partially convinced.
Just on a side note -- about fighting for rights or freedom; we Poles know how to do it the best and, moreover, knew how to do it for other countries (including yours) not receiving anything in exchange as history shows.
Cheers
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