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rundmc

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quote:Originally posted by mandrin

quote:Originally posted by bpgs1

Mandrin - are you familiar with the history of "Square to Square" method created in the late sixties by Jim Flick and Dick Aultman? Golf Digest did a bunch of articles on it and it was heralded as "The New Move" that would solve every golfers woes. They were teaching it at the very first Golf Digest schools. I tried it faithfully and it ruined my game as a promising junior player. I actually quit golf at age 15 it got so bad.


was at the second MORAD school that Mac put on in 94 with a dozen other teaching professionals and at lunch one day we all got to talking about square to square and lo and behold five of us at that table had all tried it, ruined each of our games, and three of us quit for some time! And we were not alone. A few years ago Jim Flick demonstrated what a true gentleman he is by writing a letter to Golf Digest actually apologizing to the golf community for creating and advocating the method. He readily admitted it was deeply flawed. The curling under part as I recall wasnt the really bad part, it was some other stuff which I have thankfully managed to totally forget! And from what I have been reading here about how effective Brian's teaching concepts are, I doubt very much if his stuff is anything like square to square. Respectfully,


Jim Waldron
Jim,

The first book , ‘The Square-to-Square Golf Swing’, published by Dick Aultman and the Golf Digest staff of journalists, was followed by a second one, ‘Square–to-Square Golf in Pictures’, by Jim Flick. Its purpose, to try save the method as there had been difficulties in understanding and application by high handicappers.

I don’t really think S-t-S Golf so much as a method but more as an effort to teach the general accepted ideas of the pre 70 era. There is too much of a forward bend and steep back swing. It is a lead side dominant swing as most instruction of that time.

I don’t really see it to be seriously flawed. Most of the elements in these two books are still with us in golf instruction. I believe however that the ’curling under’ move of the last three fingers of the lead hand is a subtle but very valuable bit of instruction. IMO it is the same as Brian’s twist-away.

You mentioned in one post eloquently the problem of communication in golf. Probably too often a nightmare for teachers with many students. In the second book Jim Flick relates to this relative to ‘curling under’.

Jim explains that he prefers now using ‘setting the angle’ instead of ‘curling under’ since many readers interpreted it to mean such an extreme counter-clockwise turning of the hands that the right wrist actually began to crawl over the left during the takeaway and lock. Many problems as a result.

Dude . . . how can you take a leak all on Homer and get all giddy about Flick?
 
quote:Originally posted by bpgs1

Mandrin - thank you for your clarification. I was not aware of the second book by Flick. It makes sense. I think the curling under idea is sound as Dante presented it but I dont believe in a weak or even "neutral" left hand grip for any golfer(at least anyone other than an already gifted ballstriker who is happy with their current skill level) but understand why curling under creates some good stuff in the swing when using a weak left hand grip.

I think vaguely that the lead arm pulling action, as you said a very traditional concept, is what got me into trouble. As you now know, I teach almost an opposite concept, no pulling or pushing toward the target on the downswing with either arm independently. Torso and core muscles on the left side create a pulling force and feel and on the right side a pushing force and feel, but Core - not arms independently. Do you recall seeing the Flick letter? I cant remember if he explained what exactly was so wrong with the method or not. It would be interesting to ask him how he now understands it.

Jim Waldron
Jim,

I am not aware of the letter of apologies written by Jim Flick.

I find it interesting to see you teaching the core doing the ‘pushing’ and ‘pulling’. I always felt that through the arms-shoulder triangle it to be obvious to be able to tie into the core. However for many this darned feel vs real thing always kicks in strongly and makes many people strongly believe that it is either one or the other, swinging or hitting.

Pushing vs pulling, swinging vs hitting, big vs small muscles, these controversies are with us for a long time and still vigorously debated on forums. It usually boils down in the end to feel, to chicken/egg ideas, to where we do put our mental focus. Such as pivot controlled hands and hands controlled pivot. Very very real, feel wise, but not very different from a mechanical point of view.
 
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