Left knee moving towards the ball and hips rotating outside of left leg

[Jwat]

I have been having a problem consistantly getting turned behind the ball. My body goes in the wrong direction on the BS and I can't cure it. When I start my swing, my left knee goes directly towards the ball and my hips post up on the target side of my left leg. It makes it really difficult to turn behind the ball and when I start my downswing my body is already in a position to move laterally towards the target way too much.

At impact my hands and arms are way behind the ball, even when I am trying to take the lower body action out of the swing. I have been working on the release since it was debuted and it has really helped speed my hands to the ball, but with my body already so far in front of the ball I have no chance.

So this morning I was thinking about posting my left foot outside of my left leg at address instead of directly under my knee. During dry swings it seems that my left knee moves more naturally behind the ball. Going to try when I play today but any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Below are a couple of pretty good swings for me.

 

[jeffy]

Seems to me like you are looking in the wrong spot. You appear to suffer from "pinched in right knee and restricted right hip syndrome", that afflicts thousands, if not millions, of hapless handicappers, particularly those that have read Hogan's "Five Lessons".

Let your right knee rotate externally away from the target, then let the right hip go into DEEP internal rotation, followed by the left knee kicking in. Some good models:

 

[Kevin Shields]

Hogan, Snead, Palmer, Nicklaus and......jeffy. All great exemplars of swing mechanics.

 

[footwedge]

Hogan, Snead, Palmer, Nicklaus and......jeffy. All great exemplars of swing mechanics.

Jwat is using the new release shouldn't that fix his problem? He has greater hand speed, what's missing?

 

[Kevin Shields]

FW, Im very interested in Jwat's swing. Do we know for sure what his hand speed is? Still lagging behind, no? And how do we know what he's really doing regarding the "new"(as some put it) release. So, in short, Im definitely not sure whats missing in his swing. Ive never seen it in person and would love to view the ballflight.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Just looked at his swing. Still has some reverse lean of the hips and a quick glide to the left. Very athletic but cause to dump that club away no matter what the handspeed. FYI, no science to back this up.

 

[footwedge]

Just looked at his swing. Still has some reverse lean of the hips and a quick glide to the left. Very athletic but cause to dump that club away no matter what the handspeed. FYI, no science to back this up.

I don't care about the science, just the cure, would a better setup help, hips angled differently, left hip higher and right lower at address and not the knocked knee position he has now, more reverse k as they term it? Maybe some hip rotation to go along with the slide on the d.s.?

 

[natep]

Jwat,

As far as your pivot, I used to do something similar, and it was a subconscious thing based on the feel of trying to keep weight centered 50/50 thru the swing. As you swing your arms back, their weight moves to the right. But if you are trying to maintain the feel of the same 50/50 weight distribution that you felt at address, you will have to bump your hips to the left a bit to counterbalance the weight of the arms. At least that's what I did.

 

[footwedge]

Jwat,

As far as your pivot, I used to do something similar, and it was a subconscious thing based on the feel of trying to keep weight centered 50/50 thru the swing. As you swing your arms back, their weight moves to the right. But if you are trying to maintain the feel of the same 50/50 weight distribution that you felt at address, you will have to bump your hips to the left a bit to counterbalance the weight of the arms. At least that's what I did.

Just do it at address, same kind of idea I think.

 

[natep]

Well, to stop doing it I had to have the feeling that weight moved right in the backswing. If I tried to keep weight 50/50 then my hips slid to the left a little.

 

[footwedge]

Well, to stop doing it I had to have the feeling that weight moved right in the backswing. If I tried to keep weight 50/50 then my hips slid to the left a little.

I understand but I think Jwat needs to fix his setup ,to start. JMO.

 

[Jwat]

FW, Im very interested in Jwat's swing. Do we know for sure what his hand speed is? Still lagging behind, no? And how do we know what he's really doing regarding the "new"(as some put it) release. So, in short, Im definitely not sure whats missing in his swing. Ive never seen it in person and would love to view the ballflight.

Hey Kev,
Handspeed is very fast. I think my body actually works against my handspeed. As far as the release the only part I have been working on is the transition. I try to cast a fishing pole with both my left and right wrist. Ballflight is very high. Just got fit in Dallas and was put into Xflex Ctapers on the irons and tour issue diamana ahina (whiteboard) for driver. All shafts to promote a lower ballflight.

Just looked at his swing. Still has some reverse lean of the hips and a quick glide to the left. Very athletic but cause to dump that club away no matter what the handspeed. FYI, no science to back this up.

I am definitely dumping. Don’t know if I have ever swung a golf club and not dumped it. Hands are still far behind body at impact. On video looks like my left hip loads on the target side of my left leg and then on the DS moves even farther target side. I have no chance to catch up.

I don't care about the science, just the cure, would a better setup help, hips angled differently, left hip higher and right lower at address and not the knocked knee position he has now, more reverse k as they term it? Maybe some hip rotation to go along with the slide on the d.s.?

Yesterday I did try a higher left hip/shoulder at address. Although I didn’t get video, nothing changed in ballstriking or flight. The whole knocked knee position was to try and tame my left knee from moving entirely over my left foot in the BS. Really makes me early extend. But obviously it hasn’t been working. As far as hip rotation goes, I try and open the right hip from time to time. It really shoves me at the ball in the DS for some reason and I hit it on the heel everytime.
I would love to kill the slide on the DS. I think it is a killer in my swing.

Jwat,
As far as your pivot, I used to do something similar, and it was a subconscious thing based on the feel of trying to keep weight centered 50/50 thru the swing. As you swing your arms back, their weight moves to the right. But if you are trying to maintain the feel of the same 50/50 weight distribution that you felt at address, you will have to bump your hips to the left a bit to counterbalance the weight of the arms. At least that's what I did.

Yea I worked on something similar. Yesterday I tried to step on the right foot and stay on it as Bmanz says and really was swaying. It it awful. The stepping on the foot thing has never worked for me personally.

I understand but I think Jwat needs to fix his setup ,to start. JMO.

I think setup has a lot to do with it. My problem is that I am either on my toes or on my heel, never balanced in between.

 

[jeffy]

You are obviously very athletic, but, as you said, your body isn't keeping up with your hands. That appears to be because your body only slides laterally, you don't get much rotation until after impact. You also let the right elbow get behind you.

Watch the hip slide:

A good model for you would be JB Holmes. He rotates beautifully and drives his right elbow (transverse adduction) very well.

JB sets up a little more behind the ball with a wider stance:

Similar at the the top but JB has more internal rotation in the right hip:

JB is rotating and driving the right elbow, you are sliding and casting. Also, JB has bowed both legs and has good bend in the hips and knees, preparing for a powerful extension (or "jump") through impact. You are just standing there with no place to go.

Nearly all your lag is gone: your hips are square, JB's are open. Your body is doing all it can to deliver power to the ball which means "cast" if your body doesn't rotate:

Impact: JB's is facing the target and his hands are about a foot forward of yours:

Another view of impact:

 

[Jwat]

Jeffy,

Thank you for spending the time on the photos for me. It is very clear where I am at and where I am supposed to be. The problem is that I never hit the ball good when I rotate my body more around. It seems that my hands even get farther behind my body. It should be such an easy move for me since thats the way I worked my hips and body in baseball for so many years through college. What exactly are you suggesting I do vs. what I am doing now?

Jerad

 

[spktho]

How about get to the top of your backswing like suggested and from there do what Brian suggests in the release thread without shifting any weight--feel--while keeping both feet firmly planted until impact. You may need to feel like JB as jeffy posted with the bowed legs through the whole swing.

 

[Jwat]

How about get to the top of your backswing like suggested and from there do what Brian suggests in the release thread without shifting any weight--feel--while keeping both feet firmly planted until impact. You may need to feel like JB as jeffy posted with the bowed legs through the whole swing.

Yea I like the keeping both feet on ground THRU impact. Bowed legs scare me but worth a try

 

[spktho]

Yea I like the keeping both feet on ground THRU impact. Bowed legs scare me but worth a try

I have had the same problem with the right leg spinning in too soon and had the problem of too much sway too from being a dive and drive hitter in baseball. I think doing this as Brian described, but being careful with the second part of #2 for you.

"1. Find a way to turn your back to the target. Anyway you need to.

2. Keep your back turned to the target as long as long practically can, while your weight falls back toward the target.

3. Be as bent over your waist as you ever are in the swing when you add some ummph to the club between when your left arm is level and the club is parallel for the last time pre-impact.

4. Recruit every fiber of your body to completely lose all of the forward bend you had, as you unwind some, and shift your center of gravity forward, assisting your arms to pull the club inward."

I think doing #2,3 and 4 will help a lot with keeping the feet and legs more stable and help reduce the sway while you use the your hands to get the club going. The bowed legs is more than likely just a consequence of doing those. Also, when starting the downswing feel the hands moving away from the target in the first move and not starting the release from there. That will help keep the weight back longer.

I can't wait to try this stuff, need to wait some more and keep rehabing the knee.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Yeah Jared, rotating wouldnt be part of the fix for you, thats for sure. Jeffy did point out your elbow position. Until you fix that along with how fast you're on your left side, I kinda think you'll always have these problems. It'll be tough. I know cuz I was absolutley a trapped right elbow slide and dump guy as well.

 

[Jwat]

Yeah Jared, rotating wouldnt be part of the fix for you, thats for sure. Jeffy did point out your elbow position. Until you fix that along with how fast you're on your left side, I kinda think you'll always have these problems. It'll be tough. I know cuz I was absolutley a trapped right elbow slide and dump guy as well.

I feel like I never turn my right rib cage or right shoulder around enough on my BS. Alot of the time I actually catch my right shoulder shrugging on the BS which totally stops my turn. But when I try and turn my right hip more around it seems like I reverse pivot even more.

What do you think the solution is to getting my right elbow out of my right side?

 

[jeffy]

I feel like I never turn my right rib cage or right shoulder around enough on my BS. Alot of the time I actually catch my right shoulder shrugging on the BS which totally stops my turn. But when I try and turn my right hip more around it seems like I reverse pivot even more.

What do you think the solution is to getting my right elbow out of my right side?

I like Brian's "four point program" for you. I'll add a couple comments of my own.

1. Find a way to turn your back to the target. Anyway you need to.

Obviously you need to work on this. It could be mental as much as physical. The age-old advice from "Five Lessons" of "pinched in right knee" and "restricted hips" has created generations of golfers that are afraid to let the right knee move away from the target (rotate externally) which all but the VERY most flexible need to do. Look at Kuchar's right knee:

I try to do the same thing and even turn the right foot out to facilitate the turn (I'm 56, btw):

Hell, Snead was as flexible as anybody and he did it, so you shouldn't be afraid to. You also might start with a little move into the back leg at the start of the backswing, kind of a back leg loading motion.

Something difficult for many is the concept of "internal rotation" of the right hip. This is basically the right hip rotating clockwise around the right femur. You don't let that happen. But, when you do that, the femoral head (the knob at the end of the femur) will shift backwards towards the target, what you may be feeling when you say "when I try and turn my right hip more around it seems like I reverse pivot even more". That's why a little move off the ball won't hurt you IF you allow the right hip go into internal rotation.

2. Keep your back turned to the target as long as long practically can, while your weight falls back toward the target.

A good thought here to try is to HOLD the right knee in place for a split second and start the downswing with just the left knee moving into the bow-legged position. Nicklaus is a great model:

The long drive guys exaggerate this, as we can see with Sadlowski:

3. Be as bent over your waist as you ever are in the swing when you add some ummph to the club between when your left arm is level and the club is parallel for the last time pre-impact.

This is pretty important: getting bent over at the waist with the knees flexed. You're an athlete, so I'll let you figure out how best to do it!

4. Recruit every fiber of your body to completely lose all of the forward bend you had, as you unwind some, and shift your center of gravity forward, assisting your arms to pull the club inward.

What Brian is saying in the first part is to use your posterior chain (the continuum of muscle and fascia that runs from the base of the neck to the ankles) to extend out of the bend or "jump" through impact. At the same time the legs should snap together. Again, Jamie does this to an extreme:

Squats, dead lifts, thrusters, box jumps, rowing, lunges all use the posterior chain: it is where the most power in the body comes from. So use it!