New Development in Golf Instruction - YUCK!

[Brian Manzella]

There are some "teachers" who teach that if you swing way out to right field a certain way, the ball will go "more or less" straight.

No it won't.

I have taught dozens and dozens of these poor folks, and they hit a HOOK, and can't get long irons, fairway woods, and sometimes even drivers AIRBOURNE.

My associates, like Mike Jacobs, (and Jim K when he was teaching) have seen—and fixed—many of them.

They just need to learn how to REALLY trace a straight plane line. One lesson, mabye two.

I thought it would just die out as an idea, because ball flight don't lie, and nobody likes hooks. But....

They are now BENDING CLUBS VERY VERY FLAT to make up for the big hooks.

Folks, if you are 6'0" and don't bend over more than Hubbie Green, and swing flatter than Allen Doyle, you don't need 5° flat lie angles.

If you fall for any of this, we can help you "swing like a golfer" again, and play your best golf.

The MATRIX is the cure.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

BPS - A new Clinical Term in the System!

There is phenomenon that takes place when trying to do what Brian describes above - "swinging out to right" - it will one day be known as BPS -

I have taken the liberty to name it and coin it

What that means is soon to follow, Its been under a top secret lid -- The surface of this has been scratched and descirbed in Explosive Golf 2 (which has been shot and is now being edited)


It fits under a small but powerful Branch of the complete system that is the Matrix!!!!

 

[Seanmx]

Swinging out to the right works very well for me. I suppose it's because I have a tendency to hit smothered hooks or hit the ball towards the toe of the club.

But I play my best golf when I feel that I am dragging the club out towards the right with the last three fingers of my left hand.

(Disclaimer: I only know what works for my own swing!!)

 

[Leek]

Man- I had this instruction years ago. I had a year of "swing to first base, then crank your hands over and hit it to the pitcher!" It's not all gone after 15 years. Yuck!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[wedgeplay]

I know exactly what you are talking about.

I had to play less upright irons (Mizuno) and get them bent down 3 degrees in order to play my out to the right swing.

I think that so much has been talked about OTT (over the top) that golfers go too much the other way.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Swinging out to the right works very well for me. I suppose it's because I have a tendency to hit smothered hooks or hit the ball towards the toe of the club.

But I play my best golf when I feel that I am dragging the club out towards the right with the last three fingers of my left hand.

(Disclaimer: I only know what works for my own swing!!)

More than likely you are only swinging a few degrees which isn't a big deal. We're talking about people who are advocating very very in/out swings where if you were on a monitor would probably be over 4*.

 

[dodger]

If you are swinging that much in to out, is the only way to move the club left after impact flipping and/ or chicken wing? Does the path prior to release affect the path after impact, and how?

 

[earlymann]

There is phenomenon that takes place when trying to do what Brian describes above - "swinging out to right" - it will one day be known as BPS -

I have taken the liberty to name it and coin it

What that means is soon to follow, Its been under a top secret lid -- The surface of this has been scratched and descirbed in Explosive Golf 2 (which has been shot and is now being edited)


It fits under a small but powerful Branch of the complete system that is the Matrix!!!!

I know what it is:

Back Pain Syndrome

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

If you are swinging that much in to out, is the only way to move the club left after impact flipping and/ or chicken wing? Does the path prior to release affect the path after impact, and how?

The club really doesn't move left much at all, it moves more UP than it does LEFT. As Brian says in NHA...hookers swing too much IN from the wall, swing OUT towards the wall, and then swing UP the wall.

You are correct that in most cases people fill flip some from this type of move.

 

[dodger]

Thanks for the reply Jim, as the club moves up, rather than left as you indicate, how long does the club stay up the left arm? Past both arms straight? If the hands and club move left prematurely, ie before low point, will this cause heel hits and pushes? I am lifting up in an attempt to flash my club left and ending up with some really bad shots. Any ideas?

 

[Dariusz J.]

Well, I was a classic example of a golfer who swings much more from the inside, then to the right & up and at the end left - the result was easy to predict. IMHO, Brian is absolutely right in every word in his post.
What I've observed is:
1. as Wedgeplay said, it is a sort of self-defence system against OTT and slicing;
2. it's linked to a pulling motion of the front arm that is extended in elbow (because it gives a false sense of power and control) for too long period of time after impact and, in consequence, inability to swing in-to-in;
3. usually, it's combined with a strong grip that makes things worse;
4. finally, it's linked to inability of driving the body into an open position in the impact zone (especially shoulders and chest - to hit balls with open hips at impact is relatively easy).

Having said that I wonder how long it takes to teach such a golfer to swing in-to-in with an open upper body at impact...and if it requres to make him/her ambidextrous ?

Cheers

 

[bray]

More than likely you are only swinging a few degrees which isn't a big deal. We're talking about people who are advocating very very in/out swings where if you were on a monitor would probably be over 4*.

Jim,

What kind of monitor are you referring to????

Sorting Through the Golf Nut's Catalog.

B-Ray

 

[Brian Manzella]

Monitor...

On a Golftek machine, 6° inside-out or more is just TOO MUCH!

Total J-U-N-K.

 

[Bigwill]

What's the ideal angle through impact? I think you said it was 3*, with a 2* open face, but I'm not positive.

 

[bray]

Originally I was not going to post to much in this thread....I have sent a PM with Brian to talk with him more before posting.....I believe Brian has said the Ideal Impact would be 4 degrees inside out with a face that's open two degree. However this depends on what kind of device you are using to track impact.

The GolfTEK Mat does the majority of the clubs tracking into impact not as much at impact and after.....so a club approaches the ball more and more from the inside the further away from the ball you are tracking it.....8 inches into impact is more inside out than 2 inches into impact because the clubhead travels on an arc.

Sorting Through the Circuit Player's Handbook.

B-Ray

 

[Brian Manzella]

Machines, Numbers, Agendas, and TRUTH!

This thread is great because my blood is boiling...

Here is the straight dope:

Machines that measure "path" and clubface:

To be honest, in a year, I use 'em maybe 2 hours total, out of over 1000.

I trust my eyes (swing and ball flight), and check it with my camera.


Numbers

Every machine is differnet. So...until there is an industry standard—and trackman is working on it—comparing numbers are USELESS.

But I show up and have a teach off and we can TRACKMAN the ball for the cash.

Agendas

Everyones got one, but some folk's agendas are NOT ABOUT what works better.

TRUTH

The THESIS OF THIS THREAD is the truth. Golfers are being LIED to. Teachers are saying that a club going way out to right field will produce STRAIGHT SHOTS. It won't. They are starting to BEND CLUBS FLAT to compensate.

Mike and I fix 'em in a lesson.

How?

BY TEACHING THEM TO DRAW A STRAIGHT PLANE LINE!!!!!!!

 

[bray]

This thread is great because my blood is boiling...

Here is the straight dope:

Machines that measure "path" and clubface:

To be honest, in a year, I use 'em maybe 2 hours total, out of over 1000.

I trust my eyes (swing and ball flight), and check it with my camera.


Numbers

Every machine is differnet. So...until there is an industry standard—and trackman is working on it—comparing numbers are USELESS.

But I show up and have a teach off and we can TRACKMAN the ball for the cash.

Agendas

Everyones got one, but some folk's agendas are NOT ABOUT what works better.

TRUTH

The THESIS OF THIS THREAD is the truth. Golfers are being LIED to. Teachers are saying that a club going way out to right field will produce STRAIGHT SHOTS. It won't. They are starting to BEND CLUBS FLAT to compensate.

Mike and I fix 'em in a lesson.

How?

BY TEACHING THEM TO DRAW A STRAIGHT PLANE LINE!!!!!!!

Brian,

Machines (that measure face and path):

The fact that you don't use them is fine....I rely first on my eye and video myself....however the machine is not "J-U-N-K" if you understand how to use it.....Also machines/technology are a big part of the future of teaching....equipment like Trackman, Vector, GolfTEK, AboutGolf, Weight Right, Dynamic Balance System, iclub, Motion Analysis can help the teacher teach the student more effectively when applied in the right manner and time.

I do not believe there will ever be an industry standard for teaching equipment which is good.....it's these companies that are competing to come out with the best instruction technology that are driving the industry forward. However, I focus on understanding how all the different equipment works.....why??? because it makes me more knowleadgeable as a teacher and I become a bigger assett to my students!!!!

Numbers:
When applied correctly can help some student's learn as this is the way they think....when they see something in numbers it's easier for them to understand. Not all students but some benefit from saying the swing should be so many degress inside out for their individual swing.

Agendas:
Mine is to be the best teacher I can be (that means making my students play their best) and also to continue improving my game as a player!!! I've learned a lot from your site as well as many others thanks!!!

Truth:
I would never lie to anyone about their swing and what they need to work on!!! For a player that is over the top (a lot of player's I see) it makes since to have them swing more to "right field" to get the clubface on plane....at first this would throw of their ability to square the clubface...so I would immediately teach them to square the face as well.

I have never in over 1,000 lessons over the past year had to bend someone "superflat" or really any flatter at all because I got them on plane.

Maybe I'm just doing it right using the latest technology....very similar to you Brian.

And yes in a teach off I'd expect you to win.....experience is very important in the game of golf and golf instruction...but I'm learning everyday.

Brian,

I wish you contiued success here with your site and future endeavors....as always I'm here to learn and that's part of my Agenda.....not compete with you.

Sorting Through the Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray

 

[Michael Jacobs]

Below Plane Syndrome

You try to swing down and out to the inside corner....

You beat your slice add a little swivel and finally shoot in the 80's

You continue doing what you are doing - directing the club out to right field

You shoot under 80 for the first time......

You keep at -- start to develop some push and pulls -- iron play becomes erratic

You think you need stiffer clubs

A good round could be good and a bad round awful - makes you want to take up badmitton

You start hooking and pushing drivers, you see hits off the toe and off the heel -- You start to think that you are not going inside enough -- down and out more to equal the forward.........

You end up with a wedge game with no spin and a Lie / loft machine at your bedside

You come take a lesson from Brian or myself and we show you how to draw a striaght plane line and you feel like........... well it all feels different to everybody -- to me back in the day it felt like i was trying to hit sand shot -- looked up and Brian said wow you look like david toms

 

[Tom Bartlett]

misunderstood

Bray

He didn't say the machines were junk. He sad trying to swing so far to the right is junk.
He said about the machines, that until an industry standard is used, comparing numbers (from one machine to another) is useless.

 

[Leek]

Below Plane Syndrome

You try to swing down and out to the inside corner....

You beat your slice add a little swivel and finally shoot in the 80's

You continue doing what you are doing - directing the club out to right field

You shoot under 80 for the first time......

You keep at -- start to develop some push and pulls -- iron play becomes erratic

You think you need stiffer clubs

A good round could be good and a bad round awful - makes you want to take up badmitton

You start hooking and pushing drivers, you see hits off the toe and off the heel -- You start to think that you are not going inside enough -- down and out more to equal the forward.........

You end up with a wedge game with no spin and a Lie / loft machine at your bedside

Hey!!! I resemble that remark Mike!