swinging pattern?

[RIduffer]

I have had some success lately using a downswing thought where I feel like I'm pulling the club from the top of the swing (primarily with the left arm). Basically, I just imagine that I am reversing whatever I did on the backswing.

So far, this is the only way I've found where I can feel a smooth transition. I can feel my lower body starting the downswing, keeping my shoulders from getting too active and OTT.

From what I've read this seems to correlate with a swinging pattern. Are there certain things I need to pay attention to with this approach?

I've noticed a slight tendency to push-fade the long clubs, but a little twistaway usually does the trick. Mostly, I'm happy that I'm not pulling my irons anymore.

Thanks for any advice or links to related threads.

 

[suns11111]

12-2-0 Drag Loading Basic Pattern (Swinging) from the Golfing Machine

Here's the checklist for the basic pattern for swinging.
1. Grip Basic - Overlap
2. Grip Type - Strong Single
3. Stroke Basic - Pitch Elbow
4. Stroke Variation - Triple Barrel (PA's 4-2-3)
5. Plane Line - Square to Square
6. Plane Angle Basic - Turned Shoulder Plane
7. Plane Angle Variation - Zero Shift
8. Fix - Standard
9. Address - Standard
10. Hinge Action - Dual Horizontal Hinge
11. Pressure Point Combination - Triple (PP's 2,3,4)
12. Pivot - Standard
13. Shoulder Turn - Rotated
14. Hip Turn - Slide
15. Hip Action - Delayed
16. Knee Action - Right Anchor
17. Foot Action - Flat Left
18. Left Wrist Action - Standard
19. Lag Loading - Drag Loading
20. Trigger Type - Wrist Throw
21. Power Package Assembly Point - End
22. Power Package Loading Action - Random Sweep
23. Power Package Delivery Path - Top Arc and Straight Line (hands above head at P4, then a straight line path)
24. Power Package Release - Automatic Snap Release

 

[RIduffer]

Thank you Jeff. What pros would you say illustrate this pattern?

 

[Richie3Jack]

Thank you Jeff. What pros would you say illustrate this pattern?

I would look at pros whose hands are above their head at the top of the swing and use a snap release. According to HK this is a zero shift, but I've yet to see a Tour pro use a zero shift on the TSP (or at least none really come to mind). I'd probably say Tiger is pretty close to this though.

Remember one thing. I was told by quite a few different people that HK wasn't big on creating a 'standard' hitting and 'standard' swinging component checklist because he didn't even like the thought of recommending something to a golfer. He basically wanted customization at all times.

And of course, nobody really truly 'purely swings' or 'purely hits.' We do a bit of both and that's been gone over here quite a few times.





3JACK

 

[RIduffer]

I would look at pros whose hands are above their head at the top of the swing and use a snap release. According to HK this is a zero shift, but I've yet to see a Tour pro use a zero shift on the TSP (or at least none really come to mind). I'd probably say Tiger is pretty close to this though.

Remember one thing. I was told by quite a few different people that HK wasn't big on creating a 'standard' hitting and 'standard' swinging component checklist because he didn't even like the thought of recommending something to a golfer. He basically wanted customization at all times.

And of course, nobody really truly 'purely swings' or 'purely hits.' We do a bit of both and that's been gone over here quite a few times.





3JACK

Thanks. From what I've read, it sounds like most people agree there is some overlap.

 

[bax1865]

A little of this and a little of that

Thanks. From what I've read, it sounds like most people agree there is some overlap.

Many times Homer was descibing an "uncompensated" stroke. Not many, if any, humans can truly duplicated a completely uncompensated stroke pattern. The key is to not incorporate non-compatable components within "your" selected pattern.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Everything else makes sense. Why the random sweep?

 

[Brian Manzella]

(The) 12-2-0 Drag Loading Basic Pattern (Swinging) from the Golfing Machine

A complete and utter fantasy.

 

[Steve Khatib]

Everything else makes sense. Why the random sweep?

Because that's what the book said.

 

[RIduffer]

Many times Homer was descibing an "uncompensated" stroke. Not many, if any, humans can truly duplicated a completely uncompensated stroke pattern. The key is to not incorporate non-compatable components within "your" selected pattern.

Thanks Bax. Hope you had a great holiday, and let me know when the studio is up and running at Swift Results. I'm in Providence, and look forward to checking it out.

A complete and utter fantasy.

I am not very familiar with TGM, so that list is impossible for me to comprehend, let alone apply to my golf swing.

Lately, I'm just finding that Bobby Jones' advice on left arm control in the swing is helping me feel athletic and sequenced. I'll probably be back asking questions about hitting and right forearm takeaway next week!

 

[Richie3Jack]

I am not very familiar with TGM, so that list is impossible for me to comprehend, let alone apply to my golf swing.

The checklist posted is what Homer Kelley used and suggested to use with a golfer's golf swing.

HK states there are 24 parts to the swing and each part has about 3-15 variations. Think of the checklist like an automobile and let's say we want to know 24 specific parts to a certain automobile and we see that it V6 engine, a certain size set of tires, a certain style of transmission, etc.

What HK basically wanted was the reader to understand each part of the golf swing and then understand what possible *type* of part a golfer could be using. If the type of part the golfer had wasn't compatible, much like saying if you tried to put tires from a Ferrari on a H2 Hummer, then the golfer should more or less junk that incompatible part and work on installing the compatible part to the swing.

So when you ask what certain things should you look out for with a 'swinging' procedure that's why suns11111 posted the checklist. I think the checklist is a good thing to understand. It's helped me with my practice and now I treat the driving range much like a scientist/researcher/inventor treats a laboratory.

Anyway, the things I would watch out for with a 'swinger' procedure are:

1. Make sure you down too much with the left arm. If that happens, then you need to start to pivoting more.

2. Rotating the hips too much on the downswing. Usually causes a spin-out and an OTT move.

The twistaway probably helps you out because you had the clubface too open at impact so the twistaway helps get the clubface from being so open at impact.




3JACK

 

[RIduffer]

Thanks Rich. Certainly didn't mean any disrespect to TGM info, just not familiar with the lingo yet. Appreciate the layman's terms.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Thanks Rich. Certainly didn't mean any disrespect to TGM info, just not familiar with the lingo yet. Appreciate the layman's terms.

I wasn't offended at all. TGM has helped me a lot with how to practice and how to approach practicing in order to improve my golf swing. After taking an 8-year layoff from the game I wanted to eliminate my flip and I thought it would take me about a year to do so. By understanding TGM and really understanding HK's approach to practicing, I cured that flaw in less than 3 months.

The tough part about understanding TGM from my perspective is that HK tried to eliminate the ambiguity of the english language when writing it. So his writing is a bit weird, almost like reading a book of haikus. The terminology really isn't all that hard to grasp, but the grammar and vocabulary HK uses is just...well, peculiar to say the least.

Part of that is frustrating, but his writing style does create a lot of 'ah ha' moments for the reader when they finally understand what he was saying. I think that is very pleasurable for readers and a big reason why TGM has such a devoted group of followers.






3JACK

 

[Brian Manzella]

The Goofy Swinging Pattern...in English.

There is NOTHING wrong with any "pattern" as long as it could work sometime, on somebody.

But this pattern is one that CAN NOT be done, and has NEVER been done, and NEVER will we done.

So, if you haven't already guessed, I dislike parts of it—a lot.

Here's what and why:

1. Grip Basic - Overlap
2. Grip Type - Strong Single

All that means it a normal, slightly string overlap grip.
​

No problem here.
​

3. Stroke Basic - Pitch Elbow

This means that the elbow will lead the hands and then the club, as opposed to "Punch Elbow" which is the hands leading the elbow and then the club.
​

If you are "pulling" the whole time, it's ok.
​

No problem here, either.
​

4. Stroke Variation - Triple Barrel (PA's 4-2-3)

This means you won't use the right arm for power at all.

It's fine in the respect that you can do it, but you won't hit it quite as far for sure.

Eh, I wouldn't teach this component to anyone, but it could work for someone.
​

5. Plane Line - Square to Square

Means your "direction of swing" or Horizontal Plane Angle will be at the target, and so will your aim.
​

You are going to HAVE TO hit a draw.

Not ideal, but so-so ok.
​

6. Plane Angle Basic - Turned Shoulder Plane
7. Plane Angle Variation - Zero Shift

This means that you will take the club up the TSP and down the TSP, which no one can do, and no one has ever done. Which is while the book literalists invented a flatter version of this plane so their students can get somewhat close.

"As ye goes up, ye shall come down."

Someone should tell that to Charles Barkley.

And Jones, Hagen, Sarezen, Hogan, Nelson, Snead, etc.
​

No one can do it, no one does, so it's goofy and shouldn't be here.
​

8. Fix - Standard

This is getting impact right before the swing, which is a good idea for some, and horrible for others. "Standard" means the hips and shoulder will be posed, or "fixed in your head" very slightly open, and obviously to me, not open enough.
​

I could take it or leave it as a component, but as a variation it means you will need a very early pivot decel and "arm release." No problem in general, but see
​

9. Address - Standard

Means you'll set up like a normal golfer—squared away with mid body hands and weight.

Thank goodness.
​

10. Hinge Action - Dual Horizontal Hinge

This means the clubface will stay vertical-to-the-ground through impact—which can not be done. Some TGMers think this means vertical-to-the-ground from release point to the follow-through—double no chance. Others think it is like a wake in the coffee— real scientific stuff, that.

I don't think coffee has any place in the golf swing.

Neither does an idea that can not be accomplished in a lifetime.
​

11. Pressure Point Combination - Triple (PP's 2,3,4)

This means that you won't actively put pressure on the right lifeline from the right arm.

Good luck trying.

Again, I have no problem with it, but 85% power is not something I dig.

You dig?
​

12. Pivot - Standard

This means a free turn back and through.

Awesome!
​

13. Shoulder Turn - Rotated

As opposed to a flat shoulder turn.

Good stuff.
​

14. Hip Turn - Slide

Means the hips will slide in both directions before turning.

I don't think it fits a lick with the standard pivot, but...whatever.
​

15. Hip Action - Delayed

"The Shoulders lead and power the Backstroke Hip Turn—or at least lead. The Hips then take over and lead and power the Downstroke Shoulder Turn."

The Shoulders are going to lead the slide first hips on the backstroke, in a free turn in both directions swing.
​

Really?
​

It'll snow in Chalmette in June first.
​

16. Knee Action - Right Anchor

The right knee will stay bent in the backswing.
​

And you'll do this while you have the Shoulders leading and powering the hip slide-then-turn on the backswing while doing it "freely."

No you won't.
​

17. Foot Action - Flat Left

Means your left foot will not rise on the backswing.

While you have the Shoulders leading and powering the hip slide-then-turn on the backswing, all the while doing it "freely," you'll keep th left foot flat.

Maybe.

It bet not. But someone could do it.

Like maybe a Russian Ballet dancer.
​

18. Left Wrist Action - Standard

Means your left wrist will turn and cock going back, and do the opposite coming down.

I sure hope so.
​

19. Lag Loading - Drag Loading

Means you'll pull the club lengthwise, with force along the shaft on the downswing.

By definition, this has to be included.
​

20. Trigger Type - Wrist Throw

This means you will have the right palm up and do that Sequenced Release thing, that means you'll uncock before you roll.

I'd love to check someone who THINKS they do it out on a AMM 6° 3D machine.
​

21. Power Package Assembly Point - End

This means you'll have your arms and wrists completing their cocking, turning, and bending at the very end of the backswing.

In general, a very good idea.

​

22. Power Package Loading Action - Random Sweep

This means the process of getting to #21 will begin to happen half-way back-ish, and then happen gradually.

Ok.​

23. Power Package Delivery Path - Top Arc and Straight Line

Like pulling an arrow out a quiver.

Ala, Davis Love the Third.​

24. Power Package Release - Automatic Snap Release

Means the release will happen all by itself, and very late.

Just what every student needs: A last split second, sequenced release.

Yuk.
​

 

[Kevin Shields]

Good explanation. I read it fast and thought the random sweep was on the downswing.

 

[gmbtempe]

I would look at pros whose hands are above their head at the top of the swing and use a snap release. According to HK this is a zero shift, but I've yet to see a Tour pro use a zero shift on the TSP (or at least none really come to mind). I'd probably say Tiger is pretty close to this though.

Remember one thing. I was told by quite a few different people that HK wasn't big on creating a 'standard' hitting and 'standard' swinging component checklist because he didn't even like the thought of recommending something to a golfer. He basically wanted customization at all times.

And of course, nobody really truly 'purely swings' or 'purely hits.' We do a bit of both and that's been gone over here quite a few times.





3JACK

agree, the rotation of the left hip to the left is a key swing thought for me right now, not a rope pull.....and through the hitting zone there definitely is force being driven by my right hand.

 

[gmbtempe]

Great list Brian and explanations........from what I gather there is some controversy over items that had to do with component number 14.

I don't like the term "slide" with anything, there is no sliding in the golf swing in my opinion.

 

[suns11111]

Another great post(s) from Brian and Richie3jack!

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Great list Brian and explanations........from what I gather there is some controversy over items that had to do with component number 14.

I don't like the term "slide" with anything, there is no sliding in the golf swing in my opinion.

no offense then you don't look at enough golf swings, any DECENT player has hip slide on the downswing to accomodate secondary axis tilt even those who "claim" to have pre-set it they will still slide, just not as much.

some players even slide in the backswing some to avoid too much hip turn or simply slide back and through with almost zero hip turn like Monty.

 

[Richie3Jack]

no offense then you don't look at enough golf swings, any DECENT player has hip slide on the downswing to accomodate secondary axis tilt even those who "claim" to have pre-set it they will still slide, just not as much.

some players even slide in the backswing some to avoid too much hip turn or simply slide back and through with almost zero hip turn like Monty.

I agree. Although at this moment (my opinion could change down the line) is that golfers who properly hip slide do not actively try to hip slide by 'bumping the hips.' Instead it's more or less naturally done or if they are working on it they do it by having a weight lean back and then a weight lean thru.

The biggest thing I don't like about the component list is the plane shift variation. I think a 'zero shift' and a 1SP are bigger myths than sasquatch and even worse, trying to obtain them seem to be very harmful as everybody I've golfed with that has tried that has turned their game into a disaster.



3JACK