swinging pattern?
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gmbtempe
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I dont like the term slide right now, that to me is a large lateral motion forward...I think of it as a bump. There of course is lateral motion, I just don't think of it as "slide".
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Thats fine, you are entitled to your opinion but it isn't any bump, it's BUNCH! The only time it doesn't look like a lot is when they make the move in the backswing before the downswing starts; similar to trolio's hogan secret move type of move.
Steve Khatib
Super Moderator
Bravo Brian, well put.
I get people that come for lessons and want me to teach them a pattern out of the book.
Crazy, Crazy, Crazy. Just because this is a pattern in the last edition of the book along with the basic motion etc. etc. Why do we have to do something just because it was in the book. Take a look at something for what it is and then make your own pattern.
I get people that come for lessons and want me to teach them a pattern out of the book.
Crazy, Crazy, Crazy. Just because this is a pattern in the last edition of the book along with the basic motion etc. etc. Why do we have to do something just because it was in the book. Take a look at something for what it is and then make your own pattern.
Steve Khatib
Super Moderator
THe crazy thing is that the Ben Doyle pattern per say is not in the book 100% that is why it works well! No really is not such thing as pure hitting or swinging. Brian proved
that a few years back.
He doesnt point and trace and do all of that aquired and basic motion stuff. He just gets people dynamic, something that all of the so called book literalists may NEVER understand.
that a few years back.
He doesnt point and trace and do all of that aquired and basic motion stuff. He just gets people dynamic, something that all of the so called book literalists may NEVER understand.
subtitles
3Jack - I agree with all the posts here - except for your quote above- certainly a common misconception - Homer Kelley didn't use that as his pattern and didn't suggest that you use it. It's a sample pattern - and that's the approach for most on this forum- not to put people in a box- but work with "their pattern". However, I'll give you credit in that his sentence in that section "Avoid "customizing" it with other Variations until it approaches the "expert" stage." is really horrific advice and appears to support your post.
Since he wrote his book to categorize any and every stroke possible - you have to keep that in mind. So, while this pattern is a full swing pattern- and the zero shift is not applicable- the zero shift certainly could be applicable for short shots - putts, chips etc. However, I understand that mostly "we" are talking about / thinking - full swings.
Finally, you'd need to be careful about not recommending a zero shift to a student and suggesting or commenting on the plane shifting - it would be easy for someone to think that they would consciously need to shift or feel a shift. The correct perspective for a plane shift would be from the 3rd person perspective - visually through the camera lens/video. From the 1st person perspective - procedurally - a zero shift "effort" is an excellent approach.
Anyway - a couple of nuances to the fact that a zero shift full swing - ain't happening on full swings.
3Jack - I agree with all the posts here - except for your quote above- certainly a common misconception - Homer Kelley didn't use that as his pattern and didn't suggest that you use it. It's a sample pattern - and that's the approach for most on this forum- not to put people in a box- but work with "their pattern". However, I'll give you credit in that his sentence in that section "Avoid "customizing" it with other Variations until it approaches the "expert" stage." is really horrific advice and appears to support your post.
Since he wrote his book to categorize any and every stroke possible - you have to keep that in mind. So, while this pattern is a full swing pattern- and the zero shift is not applicable- the zero shift certainly could be applicable for short shots - putts, chips etc. However, I understand that mostly "we" are talking about / thinking - full swings.
Finally, you'd need to be careful about not recommending a zero shift to a student and suggesting or commenting on the plane shifting - it would be easy for someone to think that they would consciously need to shift or feel a shift. The correct perspective for a plane shift would be from the 3rd person perspective - visually through the camera lens/video. From the 1st person perspective - procedurally - a zero shift "effort" is an excellent approach.
Anyway - a couple of nuances to the fact that a zero shift full swing - ain't happening on full swings.
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zero shift
An argument I have heard is that the Address to produce zero shift does not look "golf like."
My memory is that it has also been concluded that David Toms shifts very early in the turn back to the TSP.
Fundamentally, other than the argument that most tour players shift, are there problems you would expect the player to have by selecting an Address plane angle the same as Impact?
DRW
An argument I have heard is that the Address to produce zero shift does not look "golf like."
My memory is that it has also been concluded that David Toms shifts very early in the turn back to the TSP.
Fundamentally, other than the argument that most tour players shift, are there problems you would expect the player to have by selecting an Address plane angle the same as Impact?
DRW
Brian, Using the same list of 24 components could you write down a pattern that you use in the"real world" and has been successful for you, with a brief description. I'm sure a lot of forum members would find this interesting and learn a couple of things. Think of it as an educational exercise, like the math professor writing down one of his theoretical equations to show the class what can be done and still adhere to the laws!
Richie3Jack
New
Toms goes from elbow to TSP then back to elbow plane on the downswing. That's a 'double shift' in TGM terminology. Moe Norman allegedly was a zero shift swing and he had the address position you were talking about, but in reality he went from elbow to TSP back to elbow and was not a 'single plane swing' or a 'zero shift' swing and was a clear double shifter.
3JACK
Richie I do not think you have correctly described DT's swing. Coupled with book allegiance, I think you have decreased crediblity.
Twitch127: Have you bought any of Brian's videos? If so, then in your mind take SD or NHA and try to write up those 24 componets yourself. I think the major point is there are parts of the patterns that won't seem to fit into KH's list of 24 components without a lot of explanation(s), and similarly starting with the list of 24 components you will also fail to be able to make adequate distinctions of certain motions.
Twitch127: Have you bought any of Brian's videos? If so, then in your mind take SD or NHA and try to write up those 24 componets yourself. I think the major point is there are parts of the patterns that won't seem to fit into KH's list of 24 components without a lot of explanation(s), and similarly starting with the list of 24 components you will also fail to be able to make adequate distinctions of certain motions.
Richie3Jack
New
Huh?
Take a look at Toms' swing and show us that he doesn't go from elbow-TSP-elbow, classic double shift in the swing. (Just ignore Kostis' remarks)
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZuXp_qlNnw[/media]
Y'know, if I was such a mark for the book I would be saying that Zero Shift plane variation is the way to go, but I've repeatedly stated that it's nonsense in this very thread.
3JACK
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
I can't see the video while at work but if David every approaches the elbow plane on the downswing it was because it was a "bad swing." When he's hitting it well he comes almost straight down the TSP.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
3jack, he's a single shift to the TSP and comes straight down the TSP using a downarch and uncocking of the left wrist and very little #3 accummulator roll. Thats a bad camera angle for that line that was drawn.
Richie3Jack
New
Here is the "sweet spot" zero shift pattern.Valid or void?
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Richie3Jack
New
In my experience, no.
I've never had a TGM guy talk about trying to get themselves or a student to a zero shift. I'm not sure where Jim Hardy falls into all of this since I don't know all of his background, but I've probably dealt with about 20 people that are either AI's or know the book inside-out and I've never seen them try to get somebody into a zero shift or rave about zero shift. Personally I would love to get more into a double shift and out of my single shift.
3JACK
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