Slice is only caused by open clubface (H. Haney)

[birly-shirly]

Ringer - how do you describe the "close the doorknob" move to your students? Is this just an anti-clockwise rotation of the left hand and forearm through impact?

 

[dolanski]

Take 100 slicers and you try to fix them all with path first and face second i'll take the same 100 slicers and fix the face first and path second and if you are competing honestly, and we compare how many people stopped slicing at the end i'll beat you.

You take the average slicer with a huge open clubface and a big out/in path because they are trying to start their slice left enough and just fix their path they are going to push it, push fade it, and shank it A LOT.

UNTIL

they develop a lovely flip that gives them a nice draw and they fixed they are cured but deal with snap hooks for the rest of their golfing life.

I didn't say that fixing the path first was the best way to fix a slicer. I merely questioned the statement that people who swing to far too the left do so only to save an open face. If that statement were axiomatic, all people who swung too far to the left would be pull-faders or pull-slicers, but there are people who pull it and pull-hook it, so why are they swinging too far to the left--there's no open face for them to save?

 

[greenfree]

I didn't say that fixing the path first was the best way to fix a slicer. I merely questioned the statement that people who swing to far too the left do so only to save an open face. If that statement were axiomatic, all people who swung too far to the left would be pull-faders or pull-slicers, but there are people who pull it and pull-hook it, so why are they swinging too far to the left--there's no open face for them to save?

Could be it's left over from their slicing days. They fixed the face but it didn't change the path automatically.

 

[Ringer]

what do you mean? come across the top?

In the backswing there seems to be a counter clockwise rotation of the left arm at the end of the backswing which points the clubhead out to the right. Even if you TRIED to teach them to clockwise rotate their left arm (don't really like that idea) they still tend to re-rotate it anyway.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer - how do you describe the "close the doorknob" move to your students? Is this just an anti-clockwise rotation of the left hand and forearm through impact?

Yes. I should have said "Turn the doorknob" sorry about that. You tend to turn a doorknob by turning your forearm only. I have not yet seen anyone try to turn a doorknob with their upper arm.

I have been working lately with the idea that upper arm rotation works the plane, lower forearm rotation works the face. With a few other additions here and there it seems to ultimately be very successful in fixing ball flight issues.

FWIW, you can "turn the knob" with either forearm. The upper arm is a bit trickier, that's where right shoulder down and axis tilt come into play as well as some right elbow positioning.

 

[Ringer]

I didn't say that fixing the path first was the best way to fix a slicer. I merely questioned the statement that people who swing to far too the left do so only to save an open face. If that statement were axiomatic, all people who swung too far to the left would be pull-faders or pull-slicers, but there are people who pull it and pull-hook it, so why are they swinging too far to the left--there's no open face for them to save?

Once you understand that both the UPPER and LOWER left arm are involved in the squaring of the face, this makes total sense. How do you close the face if your left forearm is rotated clockwise? Answer: You pull the left shoulder open and try to roll the upper left arm counter-clockwise. Bye bye path.

 

[greenfree]

Yes. I should have said "Turn the doorknob" sorry about that. You tend to turn a doorknob by turning your forearm only. I have not yet seen anyone try to turn a doorknob with their upper arm.

I have been working lately with the idea that upper arm rotation works the plane, lower forearm rotation works the face. With a few other additions here and there it seems to ultimately be very successful in fixing ball flight issues.

FWIW, you can "turn the knob" with either forearm. The upper arm is a bit trickier, that's where right shoulder down and axis tilt come into play as well as some right elbow positioning.

Can the feeling be your turning your hand?

 

[birly-shirly]

Yes. I should have said "Turn the doorknob" sorry about that. You tend to turn a doorknob by turning your forearm only. I have not yet seen anyone try to turn a doorknob with their upper arm.

I have been working lately with the idea that upper arm rotation works the plane, lower forearm rotation works the face. With a few other additions here and there it seems to ultimately be very successful in fixing ball flight issues.

FWIW, you can "turn the knob" with either forearm. The upper arm is a bit trickier, that's where right shoulder down and axis tilt come into play as well as some right elbow positioning.

My mistake, Ringer. I misquoted you - you did say "turn" and I said "closed"!

Thanks for the clarification. That was more or less what I was thinking - which suggests that "turn the doorknob" is a good image, in that it conveys the information you want it to.

Is it a fair representation of your thinking then that the doorknob move squares the clubface at impact, and that you're not overly concerned whether the clubface is open on the backswing, at the top, or halfway down?

I suppose, if someone is still struggling with an open face at impact, it would be a natural reaction to start turning the doorknob a little earlier in their downswing.

 

[greenfree]

Ringer, isn't that similiar to A.J. Bonar using the little bat concept.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Good Thread/Good Posts

If I understand correctly, you mean that a clubface open TO THE PATH is the only cause of slice, but we shouldn't compensate a crazy open-to-the-target-line clubface with an extreme in-to-out swingpath.

What I am saying is this, if the clubface is open enough in any swing, the ball will slice.

I have never seen someone in 28 years of teaching, that had the clubface positions at all points in the swing of a straight ball or draw person, and hit slices JUST by swinging too far left.

Not one.

When I started golfing I had the not too enviable ability of dramatically closing the driver face and hit a slice all the same. Heck, most hackers can! And I could do the opposite (extreme push-hook, crazy open face) with my 3W.

You didn't close the face enough.

Period.

Every slicer in the world is trying to "square up the face"

They just don't know how.

FLYING WEDGE and TWISTAWAY.

Done.

Measuring the clubface relative to the path is a more "useful" measurement than to the target line. This is what Brian and Haney have done. I'd like to see TrackMan come up with a new measurement for it called "Clubface Differential".

You are absolutely correct.

You've got the "S & Ters" and Foley shouting from the mountain tops "The face has to be open for a draw". Of course, they are correct, relative to the target line, but it's bound to confuse the masses. I like to think about it from the ball's perspective. The dumb little white guy has no idea where the target is. From his perspective, the spin axis gets tilted to the right when the clubface is open to its path. Whether the resultant clubface angle will be closed, square, or open to the target line will depend on the Clubhead Path direction. First create your "shape" with the clubface. Then aim your plane.

That's soooooooooo true.

My feeling of why certain folks think the way they do, is that really good players have no problem with clubface closing.

Now, how about Haney suggesting that folks slice because they turn their shoulder too much?! Turning your torso, all else the same, rotates the clubface! Besides, Tour average shoulder rotation at impact is around 40* open. "Regular" folks don't come close to that. They may turn the shoulders on a plane which is too horizontal, but that's a different problem.

What he is saying, and he is totally correct BTW, is slower "unwind" will force the ARM release, which helps almost everyone square up the face.

that's why it is one of the TEN CORRECTIONS in Never Slice Again.

Do we really know, though, that the path is so so bad because of the clubface?

I can so you anytime.

I'll fix the flying wedge/twistaway and path fixes itself.

Wanna see some TrackMan reports from real lessons?

So what you're saying is that by fixing the face first, this may start causing a pull, but if they pull it enough times they're going to figure out how to redirect their path. That about sum it up?

Not only that, they will INSTINCTIVELY fix it sometimes WITHOUT seeing a left shot!!!

 

[Ringer]

Can the feeling be your turning your hand?

No. This has a VERY high probability of causing your hands to flip.

 

[Ringer]

Ringer, isn't that similiar to A.J. Bonar using the little bat concept.

No.

 

[Kevin Shields]

One of the times you can fix the path first is when a player with a sound clubface, stands the shaft up to fit it back inside after an out shift of the hands from the top. If you fix the players handpath, the shaft will not steepen (in theory) and the face will not slide open.

 

[greenfree]

No. This has a VERY high probability of causing your hands to flip.

Turning the doorknob using my hand, that's how i turn a doorknob, never think about rotating my forearm to turn my hand to turn the doorknob, even if the forearm does turn the hand. Guess that's why i can never get into my house or use my keys properly i got it all wrong. at least i don't flip.

 

[Todd Dugan]

No.

Yes, its exactly the same. There's only one way to independently rotate or supinate the left wrist, which is to twist the two bones in the forearm, the ulna and the radius.

So many are theoretically "against" independent wrist rotation. But consider this...if your left wrist is vertical at address and you arrive at the top with the left wrist parallel to the plane, you will have independently pronated the left wrist at least 30*. Simply swinging your left arm across your chest and rotating your shoulders 90* would only get the clubface about 60* open on the plane (assuming "natural" upper arm roll). Then your left wrist will need to arch to hinge the shaft from the arm, on the plane. It's so "natural" to roll the left wrist some to avoid this "weak" position, guys don't even realize that its happening. And its not "wrong". But when the left wrist pronates on the backswing, it must supinate the same amount on the downswing, by collision, to return the clubface to square. And it ain't gonna happen unless you twist those two bones in your forearm.

If you want to take independent wrist rotation "out" of the swing, then the clubface should be no more than 60* open on the plane, at the top, which we "call" 30* closed. The 60/30 numbers are from the biomechanical research findings of Cochran and Stobbs. But I think its more like 45/45. So a super shut clubface at the top, with no wrist rotation, will be about 45* open on the plane, 45* from parallel to the plane, and the leading edge about parallel to the ground. Think Trevino, Dustin Johnson. Much more open than that, and you HAVE to roll your left wrist into impact.

 

[greenfree]

A.J., i mean Ringer, Oh, no ! "cough", cough".

 

[Ringer]

Yes, its exactly the same. There's only one way to independently rotate or supinate the left wrist, which is to twist the two bones in the forearm, the ulna and the radius.

So many are theoretically "against" independent wrist rotation. But consider this...if your left wrist is vertical at address and you arrive at the top with the left wrist parallel to the plane, you will have independently pronated the left wrist at least 30*. Simply swinging your left arm across your chest and rotating your shoulders 90* would only get the clubface about 60* open on the plane (assuming "natural" upper arm roll). Then your left wrist will need to arch to hinge the shaft from the arm, on the plane. It's so "natural" to roll the left wrist some to avoid this "weak" position, guys don't even realize that its happening. And its not "wrong". But when the left wrist pronates on the backswing, it must supinate the same amount on the downswing, by collision, to return the clubface to square. And it ain't gonna happen unless you twist those two bones in your forearm.

If you want to take independent wrist rotation "out" of the swing, then the clubface should be no more than 60* open on the plane, at the top, which we "call" 30* closed. The 60/30 numbers are from the biomechanical research findings of Cochran and Stobbs. But I think its more like 45/45. So a super shut clubface at the top, with no wrist rotation, will be about 45* open on the plane, 45* from parallel to the plane, and the leading edge about parallel to the ground. Think Trevino, Dustin Johnson. Much more open than that, and you HAVE to roll your left wrist into impact.

Forearm rotation IS wrist rotation. The difference between AJ and I is that I DON'T want the left wrist to fold.

As you turn a door knob, you actually INCREASE the bend in the right wrist which would flatten or arch the left.

 

[greenfree]

Forearm rotation IS wrist rotation. The difference between AJ and I is that I DON'T want the left wrist to fold.

As you turn a door knob, you actually INCREASE the bend in the right wrist which would flatten or arch the left.

What if you use your left to turn the doorknob? or are you referring to the left wrist.

 

[greenfree]

By folding do you mean an anatomically flat wrist or a double cocked wrist? or a geometrically flat wrist?

 

[Ringer]

What if you use your left to turn the doorknob? or are you referring to the left wrist.

Either if you are turning it counter clockwise.

If you like, pretend the door knob is rusted and doesn't want to turn so you have to use both hands. Whichever floats your boat and makes the ball flight straighten.

This motion is primarily to isolate the feeling of the left forearm rotating as opposed to rotating the entire arm including the bicep and tricep. A typical "slicer" is trying to rotating their whole arm with a left ward shoulder tug. Tell them to turn the door knob and you effect the clubface without effecting the plane.