Clearing my hips

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I think you're right that people discounted Jack's ballstriking - on account of his spectacular length, or his spectacular clutch putting, or what was very often a spectacularly conservative strategy. In other words, too butch or too successful, to be a true artist.

Who else but Nicklaus has a commemorative plaque in the middle of a fairway for a sensational one iron shot? No one, that's who. Jack remains the best all time, despite what Eldrick may do in the future.

Now, to ponder the rest of your latest post, is there something shameful for being a picker, or has the golf world become so enamored with the divot that a nice strike without a divot is considered less than virile?
 

jeffy

Banned
Who else but Nicklaus has a commemorative plaque in the middle of a fairway for a sensational one iron shot? No one, that's who.

That one-iron to the 72nd hole at the 1967 US Open may have been the best "full shot" ever. It was uphill, 238 yards, into a slight wind, with a crappy MacGregor Tourney ball, at a time when his average drive was 275 yards.
 

Dariusz J.

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Are you sure this is correct? By all accounts, his short game was excellent, certainly while he was winning (Jody Vasquez said it was still excellent in the early 1960s) and his putting didn't really leave him until the mid-1950s, when, not surprisingly, he stopped winning. During the 1940s, putting was considered one of his strengths.

Well, I admit I might have exaggerated with his mediocre short game; but his putting deteriorated just after the accident (damaged lead eye - dominant eye for Hogan, BTW). Bolt addresses it very clearily in his sentences about Hogan.

A couple of reasons. When Nicklaus is asked who the best ballstriker was, he says Hogan and Trevino. So, unless Jack thinks he was better than Hogan, he couldn't think he was better than Trevino.

Another reason is I think people discounted Nicklaus's ballstriking because of his length: they assume he hit more greens simply because he had shorter approaches. I think young Tiger and Bubba's ballstriking are "downgraded" by similar thinking.

Third reason is I think his ballstriking did deteriorate as he got older and made swing changes that were in fashion. His record in the US Open seems to reflect that: after his third US Open win in 1972, he won seven majors, but just one was a US Open where, arguably, the best ballstriker would have an edge. He seems to have pulled things back together in the early 1980s (leading total driving in 1980, 1981 and 1982), but then tapered off as his career wound down.

BTW, stats were kept during the 1967 US Open at Balstusrol and Nicklaus and Dickinson tied with most GIRs (Nicklaus set the US Open scoring record that year). Don't know where Trevino, who placed 5th in that event, finished in those rankings. Also, in 1968, Trevino's first full year on tour (he won the 1968 US Open), IBM kept statistics for the full season, and Jack led driving distance at 275 yards and GIRs at 75%, which were allegedly "significantly ahead of his rivals". So maybe Jack was better than Trevino in the 1960s.

Your knowledge is really astounding, no doubt. And your argumentation is now good. Anyhow we still have no stats comparison of the early 70-ies, when Trevino played his best golf and beat Nicklaus several times.
Lastly, could you say when Nicklaus said that the best ballstrikers were Hogan and Trevino ? I know only one version where he said Hogan was easily the best ballstriker.

Who else but Nicklaus has a commemorative plaque in the middle of a fairway for a sensational one iron shot? No one, that's who.

LOL. Ben Hogan at Merion has a plaque commemorating a 1-iron shot thats 1000 times more famous than all Nicklaus 1-iron shots together.

Cheers
 

jeffy

Banned
Well, I admit I might have exaggerated with his mediocre short game; but his putting deteriorated just after the accident (damaged lead eye - dominant eye for Hogan, BTW). Bolt addresses it very clearily in his sentences about Hogan.

Hogan's biography indicates that the putting deterioration was more gradual.

Your knowledge is really astounding, no doubt. And your argumentation is now good. Anyhow we still have no stats comparison of the early 70-ies, when Trevino played his best golf and beat Nicklaus several times.

He beat Nicklaus at the 1971 US Open at Merion, where it was wet from consistent rains, a key for Trevino because of his low ball flight, and where Nicklaus had stunning failures with his sand game.

Second time was at 1972 British Open at Muirfield, where Trevino freely admits it was his short game that won it: he holed out from off the green five times, including once when the ball slammed square into the flagstick when he thinned a sand shot. If he'd missed, it easily could have gone over the green.

Third time was the 1974 PGA at Canterbury where, as at Merion, it was wet throughout the tournament. Trevino said that he always won "in the mud". One reason why Augusta wasn't his cup of tea.

Lastly, could you say when Nicklaus said that the best ballstrikers were Hogan and Trevino ? I know only one version where he said Hogan was easily the best ballstriker.

It was a magazine article, not sure which magazine, where Jack made the comment about Dickinson and "short irons" I quoted earlier. He listed his best overall ballstrikers (Hogan and Trevino) and who was best at certain shots.

LOL. Ben Hogan at Merion has a plaque commemorating a 1-iron shot thats 1000 times more famous than all Nicklaus 1-iron shots together.

Cheers

That shot is way over-rated. Hogan was leaking oil like crazy and struggling to finish the round, his first 36-hole day since the accident. The shot that was called for was a faded 4-wood to get it back close to the hole, a shot Hogan "owned" and in less stressful circumstances would have attempted without hesitation. Instead, since he had already thrown away the lead on the back nine, he conservatively chose a one-iron into the middle of the green, and left himself a 40 foot putt that he nearly three-putted.

In contrast, Jack's 1967 shot was well beyond his normal 1-iron distance and finished 22 feet away, a putt he holed. Jack also hit a great 1-iron at the 71st hole at the 1972 US Open at Pebble Beach, that hit the flag and left a clinching tap-in. Jack also knocked a one-iron close at 15 in his 1975 Masters win, when he held off Weiskopf and Miller the last day. All three were superior to Hogan's one-iron at Merion. It is just that no one took a great picture of Jack's: I get shivers looking at Hogan hitting that shot. Perhaps the best golf picture ever taken. But an ordinary shot (as Hogan implies in "Five Lessons").

HoganMerion.png
 
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Pretty sure you may have read that in Hogan's own book...5 Lessons. It's all part of the mystique, innit? Did he, didn't he? Could he...?
 

jeffy

Banned
I thought Hogan's shot was a 2 iron? Pretty sure i read that somewhere.

You sure did. It is in "Five Lessons". But it has been definitively established that "Five Lessons" is incorrect. One of the reasons I tell people to take what is in "Five Lessons" with a grain of salt.
 

dbl

New
You guys made me think of other plaques for famous long shots. Threw out Gilder's 3W at Westchester, Palmer's 12 at Rancho Park (lol). We are left with these:

Bobby Jones' 2 Iron that set up his 1923 win at Inwood
Plaque unveiled at site of Bobby Jones's dramatic shot that won 1923 Open at Inwood Country Club golf course. (1923 U.S. Open) - PR Newswire | HighBeam Research

Bobby Jones 1926 2nd shot on the 467 yard par 4 at Royal Lytham with a mashie
Royal Lytham & St Annes Golf Club - Top 100 Golf Courses of the British Isles

Perhap worthy of a mention in the "mid iron" category there is Palmer's 6I in 1961
The 66th Annual Senior PGA Championship / Arnold Palmer Tribute / Did You Know?
 

jeffy

Banned
Mr. D-

A couple more comments on Trevino.

In the Nicklaus magazine article where he mentioned both Hogan and Trevino, Jack did make a distinction: Hogan was the best getting the ball "from A to B", whereas Trevino was the best at "creating shots". That might lead some to think maybe Trevino wasn't that great "from A to B" in Jack's mind.

Another data point. Lee was on David Fehrety's show this season and really talked up his short-game (the hole-outs at Muirfield were highlighted) and downplayed his balstriking. He did acknowledge that his trajectory was very consistent, but said he needed his short-game to compensate for weaknesses in his long game. He said there were a bunch better ballstrikers.
 

ej20

New
I am willing to bet any money that Jack had better ballstriking stats than both Hogan and Trevino throughout their whole careers if they had kept stats.

Jack is down and out the most under-rated ballstriker in history.If I was Dariusz I would base my "biokinetic" model on Jack,not Hogan.

Upright swings are biokinetically superior because they require less forearm and pivot rotation which is a bitch to time.No wonder Hogan had to practice 8 hours a day.
 

jeffy

Banned
Don't be ridiculous, you have no idea what Jack was "trying" to tell George, your guessing.

I know I'm guessing, that's why I prefaced it with "I think...".

Did I mention George is from my hometown he played at St. Charles C.C. when he was a junior, he won our national junior championship in 1955. He left in 1958 I think, and went to T.O. I saw him play lot's of times, waaaay more than you or your dad combined. I totally disagree with your opinion, it's ridiculous, totally ridiculous. Lay off the sauce, your ridiculous when you drink.:D

I think it's ridiculous to call a guy that hit a dinky hook a great ballstriker, but that's just me, on or off the sauce.

Since you brought it up, George seemed quite fond of a drink or two. There was a hilarious Shell match where George must have been nursing a massive hang-over because he was regularly knocking 15-footers six feet by! He thanked the sponsors effusively after the match (second place was guaranteed!), but I got to wonder if he was ever invited back.

George Knudson Great Hitter of a Golf Ball! - YouTube

Read the comments below the video by someone that really knows.

Seems that Moe is loyal to his fellow countryman. How nice. But everyone agrees he was a strange dude and said a bunch of weird things.
 

footwedge

New member
I am willing to bet any money that Jack had better ballstriking stats than both Hogan and Trevino throughout their whole careers if they had kept stats.

Jack is down and out the most under-rated ballstriker in history.If I was Dariusz I would base my "biokinetic" model on Jack,not Hogan.

Upright swings are biokinetically superior because they require less forearm and pivot rotation which is a bitch to time.No wonder Hogan had to practice 8 hours a day.


I think Hogan said he enjoyed practice and wanted to outwork everyone else, he said he practiced shots required for the course he was going to play, he didn't practice just to work on his timing so he could actually have a working swing he already owned that.
 

footwedge

New member
I know I'm guessing, that's why I prefaced it with "I think...".



I think it's ridiculous to call a guy that hit a dinky hook a great ballstriker, but that's just me, on or off the sauce.

Since you brought it up, George seemed quite fond of a drink or two. There was a hilarious Shell match where George must have been nursing a massive hang-over because he was regularly knocking 15-footers six feet by! He thanked the sponsors effusively after the match (second place was guaranteed!), but I got to wonder if he was ever invited back.



Seems that Moe is loyal to his fellow countryman. How nice. But everyone agrees he was a strange dude and said a bunch of weird things.


That's not Moe talking about George, lay off the sauce...lol. George wasn't a very good putter, but he knew how to smoke a cigarette and looked cool before cool was cool. You wish you could hit that dinky little hook like George.

Moe never said anything weird you just don't understand him , it's over your head.:) You say lot's of weird things and are a bit strange I don't hold that against you I can relate to that...lol.
 

ej20

New
I think Hogan said he enjoyed practice and wanted to outwork everyone else, he said he practiced shots required for the course he was going to play, he didn't practice just to work on his timing so he could actually have a working swing he already owned that.

He just enjoyed to practice.He even kept practicing well after his competitive days were over.Some people just love hitting balls and this is why he can goove such a difficult pattern.Nobody has ever succesfully copied his action because it is biokinetically SOB difficult.
 

footwedge

New member
He just enjoyed to practice.He even kept practicing well after his competitive days were over.Some people just love hitting balls and this is why he can goove such a difficult pattern.Nobody has ever succesfully copied his action because it is biokinetically SOB difficult.


If Dariusz was smart he could say... that just proves how great he was. C' mon EJ, your making it too easy for Dariusz. ..lol.
 
He just enjoyed to practice.He even kept practicing well after his competitive days were over.Some people just love hitting balls and this is why he can goove such a difficult pattern.Nobody has ever succesfully copied his action because it is biokinetically SOB difficult.
You don't think nobody ever really successfully copied it because it didn't *look* as cool as someone like, say, Snead? Doesn't everyone secretly want to look like Snead when they swing a club? I mean it sure as hell looks a lot better than addressing the ball like a urinal.
 
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