Maybe make it more open ended - Q: Is there an optimal biomechanical pelvis motion, and if so please describe and if possible compare to "maintaing the tush line."
Clearing my hips
- Thread starter joep
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Maybe make it more open ended - Q: Is there an optimal biomechanical pelvis motion, and if so please describe and if possible compare to "maintaing the tush line."
Exactly! you need them to learn from but their inferior, their not inferior when you need to learn from them but later they become old farts that would lose by 10 shots to J. Rose of all people, Rose against Hogan love to see that, give Rose all the time he needs to get use to the equipment, what he wouldn't get use to is the beating he'd take.
The attitude.
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magicmarker
New
now vs then...
I think some players would adapt to the old equipment better than others......
More importantly though is that I don't know how the players nowadays would fare on far more scraggly courses with far worse greens than they are used to. Have you ever seen guys on the tour whining about the setup or the conditions, boohoo I can't sleepwalk my way to a 68, what a grind. I don't know who would win and I think it would all come down to the individual matchups. I do know this though, those old guys would love to play on the perfect conditions players now get almost every week... and most of today's top players would bitch and whine if they had to putt the greens back then.
I lean towards thinking that the avg pro from back then couldn't cut it now and probably wouldn't come close, but I think the real players from back then would intimidate a lot of the top tier guys now and their tee to green game would make them tough to handle on today's near perfect greens.but who knows...awesome threadjack we have here...
if the hips clear naturally then fine, but I wouldn't over do trying to do it.
I think some players would adapt to the old equipment better than others......
More importantly though is that I don't know how the players nowadays would fare on far more scraggly courses with far worse greens than they are used to. Have you ever seen guys on the tour whining about the setup or the conditions, boohoo I can't sleepwalk my way to a 68, what a grind. I don't know who would win and I think it would all come down to the individual matchups. I do know this though, those old guys would love to play on the perfect conditions players now get almost every week... and most of today's top players would bitch and whine if they had to putt the greens back then.
I lean towards thinking that the avg pro from back then couldn't cut it now and probably wouldn't come close, but I think the real players from back then would intimidate a lot of the top tier guys now and their tee to green game would make them tough to handle on today's near perfect greens.but who knows...awesome threadjack we have here...
if the hips clear naturally then fine, but I wouldn't over do trying to do it.
I agree, especially about the hips. Personally I like the feeling of the butt end impaling me in the solar plexus as the clubhead comes around to line up, but that's just me and it's a feel. Kind of makes the hips get out of the way since I don't want a club stuck in my rib cage.
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4 years ago Steve Marino played a Muni for a golf article and he basically hated it. Didn't know what lie he'd get anywhere, and greens totally inconsistent. Thought it would be very hard to go low.
Tee for Two
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
Rose was a name I pulled out of the air. I don't have any attitude at all. Simply an opinion. I respect the old guys as much as anyone but these guys today....They have better all around games. I'm sorry if that is an attitude, but it isn't. Just an opinion. You disagree, fine, disagree.
I looked at the stats from 80 to today. They aren't that much different. The leaders in accuracy were about 70% GIR about 70%. Tour averages for those two stats...within a standard deviation of one another. SO, my opinion is this, ball striking being basically equal with better putters for today and better overall short games. I think ANY top tier player (top 30 -50 money list) from today would be a lock to win an event on Tour in 1962 by a lot, if they had a week to get used to the equipment and balls. Would they sustain this level of dominance? No. For the same reason a guy turns 50 heads out to the Champions tour fresh off the main tour and slays everyone....for about 6 - 18 months. Then his game returns to the norm of the competition around him. Human nature. \
To another point...
All this talk about Trevino, stats don't back it up, from 1980 to 86 he finished in the top 10 in ball striking exactly once and was as low as 86th at one point. Nicklaus was never out of the top 5 and was #1 from '80 to '83.....but Nicklaus sucked according to internet forum land...couldn't hit a golf ball to save his life, course management won him all those majors....Really?
Nicklaus was the best ball striker of his generation without a doubt.
drewyallop
New
My muni at the cottage had a 6 foot boulder in the middle of one green.
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
Some of the toughest courses to score on are beat up munis. I watched a pro go around Valleybrook GC in Chattanooga a few years ago in an exhibition (Charlie Rymer). Valleybrook used to host the PGA Tour stop in the 80's and 90's, used to be private, now public, anyway...Rymer shot 68. Birdied all the par 5's and one short par 4 and made one bogey. Really didn't do anything special but a pro on a 6700 yard golf course you would think 65 at a minimum. I would assume course conditioning would have a lot to do with that.
rogerdodger
New
This post hits it right on the head. Rather than rely on grill room gossip, go to the records. Pretty funny how many "great ballstrikers" who could not putt played from 1950 to 1980. It was relative to the competition of the time. Trevino had weaknesses, he could not hit long irons high enough for example. But the ball in those days made up for it with more spin. I watched Trevino play in the early 1980's. He and players like Hale Irwin were really consistent. But, when you saw Weiskopf, Norman, a young Payne Stewart hit a golf ball, you knew they were playing a different game. I saw Peter Jacobson play in his rookie year and was amazed at his swing and golf shots. He was playing with Zoeller who holed every putt he looked at. Bottom line, in golf nothing is more over-rated than ball striking. The best putter will always win in this game, every time. We waste our time trying to hit the ball like Ben Hogan, when we should be trying to putt like Ben Crenshaw. I played with a 24 handicapper last week. He had 23 putts for eighteen holes and scored a 98. He had eight penalty strokes. With his handicap, he was tough to beat. Putting is what separates golfers. Luke Donald is number 1 for a reason.
Lindsey Newman
New
Hip rotation.
Today I was signing my name, in the process, I really focused on my elbow so I could sign my name better..... I didn't.
Today I was signing my name, in the process, I really focused on my elbow so I could sign my name better..... I didn't.
scorekeeper
New member
There lies the problem........the pen is in your hand...... NOT ......on your elbow..................focus on the pen......then move to paper
then sign...............................glad to help
Writing class is the answer.
Dariusz J.
New member
Yes, good point. Much better formulated question.
Not a word more not a word less again.
OK, so why (I ask for the 3rd time that question) Trevino is being set on a higher pedestal as regards ballstriking quality than Nicklaus ?
I do not believe it was because of some internet plot or something like that. IMHO, Trevino's stats were better in his prime when he was beating Nicklaus, but I would like to hear other opinions as well.
Cannot deny this. But putting is a completely different game, therefore, the best golfer (i.e. who wins most) is simply like a biathlon champion. I do not know how others but if I am to choose who deserved to be honoured more - a great ballstriker or a great putter - do I need to answer it ?
But do not forget that you will be much more consistent with a core-driven motion. Hands are too imprecise a tool as regards consistency for longer run.
Cheers
I never said Nicklaus sucked, he's one of my favorite old farts. Wonder if he could give the new breed a run for their money with the old equip. and Jack in his prime....? Trevino won 6 majors good enough for me, beat the greatest golfer in history(according to some in internet land), in the hall of fame etc.
Your right I disagree. Lee Trevino - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
jeffy
Banned
Are you sure this is correct? By all accounts, his short game was excellent, certainly while he was winning (Jody Vasquez said it was still excellent in the early 1960s) and his putting didn't really leave him until the mid-1950s, when, not surprisingly, he stopped winning. During the 1940s, putting was considered one of his strengths.
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jeffy
Banned
A couple of reasons. When Nicklaus is asked who the best ballstriker was, he says Hogan and Trevino. So, unless Jack thinks he was better than Hogan, he couldn't think he was better than Trevino.
Another reason is I think people discounted Nicklaus's ballstriking because of his length: they assume he hit more greens simply because he had shorter approaches. I think young Tiger and Bubba's ballstriking are "downgraded" by similar thinking.
Third reason is I think his ballstriking did deteriorate as he got older and made swing changes that were in fashion. His record in the US Open seems to reflect that: after his third US Open win in 1972, he won seven majors, but just one was a US Open where, arguably, the best ballstriker would have an edge. He seems to have pulled things back together in the early 1980s (leading total driving in 1980, 1981 and 1982), but then tapered off as his career wound down.
BTW, stats were kept during the 1967 US Open at Balstusrol and Nicklaus and Dickinson tied with most GIRs (Nicklaus set the US Open scoring record that year). Don't know where Trevino, who placed 5th in that event, finished in those rankings. Also, in 1968, Trevino's first full year on tour (he won the 1968 US Open), IBM kept statistics for the full season, and Jack led driving distance at 275 yards and GIRs at 75%, which were allegedly "significantly ahead of his rivals". So maybe Jack was better than Trevino in the 1960s.
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jeffy
Banned
Don't be too hard on Trevino. He was struck by lightning in 1975, had back surgery, and never was the same player. From 1968 through 1974, he won five majors; he won only one after that, in 1984.
birly-shirly
New
Damn you, and your facts, Jeffy...
I think you're right that people discounted Jack's ballstriking - on account of his spectacular length, or his spectacular clutch putting, or what was very often a spectacularly conservative strategy. In other words, too butch or too successful, to be a true artist.
The other thing that strikes me is that the ballstrikers that people seem to wax lyrical about are often the guys who take beaver pelt divots. You know, the guys who really compress it...I'm thinking Hogan, Trevino, Garcia. Are there pickers and sweepers who get the same level of popular adulation?
I think you're right that people discounted Jack's ballstriking - on account of his spectacular length, or his spectacular clutch putting, or what was very often a spectacularly conservative strategy. In other words, too butch or too successful, to be a true artist.
The other thing that strikes me is that the ballstrikers that people seem to wax lyrical about are often the guys who take beaver pelt divots. You know, the guys who really compress it...I'm thinking Hogan, Trevino, Garcia. Are there pickers and sweepers who get the same level of popular adulation?
jeffy
Banned
This observation made me think of another reason Nicklaus's ballstriking was downgraded: he really sucked as a wedge player! People love to watch the low-burning wedges that dance around the hole. Jack couldn't do that. But what he could do is drop a mid to long iron next to a tucked flag while everyone else hit to the middle of the green. He killed everyone on the par 3s and reachable par 5s.
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