Fowler Stuff (now with p5 Manzella Answers)

[welshdentist]

Dear welshdentist,

I practice with a 'senior, retired' German dentist at the driving range several times a week, and he continually while taking lessons once a week makes the same swing mistakes, AND EXPECTS DIFFERENT RESULTS. My frustration is that the almost million degrees a of freedom of the movement of all the golf-affected joints, in a random statistical way allows him to pull hook a 200 plus yard carry shot now and then encouraging him to believe his lessons are paying off.

I watched a few lessons and have yet to hear/see the instructor even mention his random TEMPO, or more importantly his insufficient lower and upper body dynamic balance.

I will take a leap of faith and predict without us ever having met that you too may be missing the CRUCIAL CORNERSTONES OF EVERY GOLF SWING.

Please, for the sake of the 'million hits a week' this wonderful Brian Manzella Site enjoys, try the repeating swings without a ball to establish YOUR TEMPO, then "Bumpy Back, Keep it Back" and get ready for the golf swing improvements of your life, and hopefully for the rest of your life.

I stand ready to help you with ANY problems you encounter, but since you, if you give this a real honest chance, are in a population of folks, all of which have been successful, and just in this past week include a retired professional basketball player, a father and son from Surry viisiting Southern California, and a 93 year old golfer awaiting a left hip replacement, formerly a 3 (now 23 handicap), that with 'balance' enjoyed 15 yards more on his 7 iron, and 30 yards more on his driver, ALL DOWN THE MIDDLE.

My interest with you however, is (1) the improvement I KNOW you can realize, (2) hopefully the interest of anyone reading this string, but most importantly (3) to BALANCE THE FAILURE I AM HAVING WITH THAT OTHER DENTIST, IMO, because of his bullheadedness, and his teacher who apparently doesn't believe the importance or maybe the priority and sequence of teaching TEMPO and DYNAMIC BALANCE AND STABILITY control as the cornerstones of a a repeatable and reliable golf swing.

So as some folks say, THANKS FOR LISTENING, but more importantly for all of us, PLEASE TRY THE ABOVE, and let all of us know the results.

Sincerely and appreciatively,
art

Hi Art,

Thank your for the response. I am getting a simple programme made to help release the locked outer right hip and improve range of motion and strength whilst moving about. It's why I have gone to see someone, to get my hips healthy and moving freely so I can use them better in my golf swing.

Basically from my assessment I cant do much with my right hip other than slide it to the right to support my weight when I pivot to the right.

On my physical screening when weight goes to the right I roll to the outside of my foot and recruit my quad and knee to support instead of using the hip and glute to take the load. I was tested for core strength and balance/range of motion. My hips basically are a bit locked and are affecting my true movement potential. I'd love to move my right hip back and keep it there

Moving it back and keeping it there is actually physically very difficult at the moment due to it's current ability. It will be a session or two of soft tissue massage then foam roller exercises and functional movement execises ala Gray Cook to balance up my body so it moves with less injury risk and more efficiently. That said I'm hitting it great and reaosnably far, just looking to get more consistent and protect my body. Once the hips move more freely my lower back will take less strain too....

Dentists will get tight right hips from their use of the pedal on the floor with their right foot, occupation hazard as they say....we usually get tight in the hips and mid thoracic area, leading to low back/neck issues.

Tempo is huge and I use the tour tempo frequently to get me swinging at 'my ideal' tempo.

The physiotherapist I went to see looks after a load of tour pros and is very clued in on how body movements cause swing problems.

Any UK guys want his details PM me....

Darius, I really do get where you are coming from, and respect your ideas, but you really do seem to think it's the only way and are very abrasive to anyone who disagrees. Hogan was a genius, and the internet is full of people claiming to know why.....some try to charge, some don't. Some can teach it, but it requires time totally change a pattern. Also that may well not be optimal for someone....

And a lot of people should NOT BE TRYING A PIVOT CONROLLED MOTION IF THEIR BODY HAS ISSUES.

You can be overweight and flexible.....

He knew what he was doing, and didn't tell anyone else.

Why not? Why should he, he worked it out himself through hard work....

Also, it was 'his' optimal pattern to play 'his' best golf......

 

[leon]

So browsing the forum I see a thread about Rickie has appeared following his win with 7 pages already - thinks 'this should be good'. Sure enough Brian's opening post features some really interesting pictures, and a nice description follows shortly after.

Then 6 pages on rate of closure - seriously? All that good stuff and all we can find to discuss is that a particular still (which by the way is very revealing) showing both arms straight must means a high rate of closure. What a waste of a good thread starter.

Brian, can you please put all this RoCk BS in its own thread, then we can start again.

Personally I'd like to know what is it that he does (or doesn't do) to be effective with such deep low hands at the top? Looks to me like a combination of a more out hand path and negative beta followec by late tumble. Am I even close?

 

[Brian Manzella]

leon, another thread is coming....

 

[Brian Manzella]

You still do not understand the merits which are on the level of primary school math and physics, sorry. What you always do in such cases is just cover it with usual cascade of abusive words. That's the truth, Brian. Sorry.
Ask any of your physicists about RoC NOT IN THE SENSE OF IMPACT BUT IN THE SENSE OF POSSIBILITIES TO DELIVER TO IMPACT (with different RoC's). Come on, it is an easy stuff not requiring any data, common sense is even enough.

You are swimming with one hand....


If your little THEORY is correct, you ABSOLUTELY need less speed, less wrist cock delay, less left arm to club angle.

All would reduce the "Rate of Closure" more than anything you think.


You, and all the other low "Rate of Closure" theorists really mean LOOK OF CLOSURE.

 

[cwdlaw223]

The LOOK of closure is vastly different than the RATE and hopefully you could do a video on this subject.

 

[TROYNYGOLFER]

A very good and intelligent post. Judging from the number of likes from my adversaries in the discussion they did not understand it fully.

Assuming you're 100% right, we can draw the following conclusions:

.........................Now a question: if today's hackers cannot find any consistency and repeatability and are spreading shots ewerywhere despite an easy-to-hit forgiving equipment -- what should they do ? go towards patterns that already proved to be satisfactory in this goal (Hogan) or go towards current tour pros who themselves suck with consistency and repeatability ?

The answer is more than clear.

Cheers

Dariusz, while I appreciate your position how can you say "current tour pros who themselves suck with consistency and repeatability?" I have played a few guys who were on the mini-tour circuit and I would kill for 70% of their consistency and repeatability.

 

[TROYNYGOLFER]

Dear welshdentist,

I practice with a 'senior, retired' German dentist at the driving range several times a week, and he continually while taking lessons once a week makes the same swing mistakes...........................
I will take a leap of faith and predict without us ever having met that you too may be missing the CRUCIAL CORNERSTONES OF EVERY GOLF SWING.

Please, for the sake of the 'million hits a week' this wonderful Brian Manzella Site enjoys, try the repeating swings without a ball to establish YOUR TEMPO, then "Bumpy Back, Keep it Back" and get ready for the golf swing improvements of your life, and hopefully for the rest of your life.

I stand ready to help you with ANY problems you encounter, but since you, if you give this a real honest chance, are in a population of folks, all of which have been successful, and just in this past week include a retired professional basketball player, a father and son from Surry viisiting Southern California, and a 93 year old golfer awaiting a left hip replacement, formerly a 3 (now 23 handicap), that with 'balance' enjoyed 15 yards more on his 7 iron, and 30 yards more on his driver, ALL DOWN THE MIDDLE.

My interest with you however, is (1) the improvement I KNOW you can realize, (2) hopefully the interest of anyone reading this string, but most importantly (3) to BALANCE THE FAILURE I AM HAVING WITH THAT OTHER DENTIST, IMO, because of his bullheadedness, and his teacher who apparently doesn't believe the importance or maybe the priority and sequence of teaching TEMPO and DYNAMIC BALANCE AND STABILITY control as the cornerstones of a a repeatable and reliable golf swing.

So as some folks say, THANKS FOR LISTENING, but more importantly for all of us, PLEASE TRY THE ABOVE, and let all of us know the results.

Sincerely and appreciatively,
art

Art, I have been dealing with a herniated L4/5 and related spinal stenosis. It has wreaked havoc on my golf swing, as my pivot is so wildly inconsistent that I can see changes in 2-d and would be frightened to see what 3-D looks like (I was on Mike Jacobs AMM system last year) after only 40-50 balls on the range. Cortisone, PT, and 1.1gm of Naproxen have at least made the issue bearable, but the lingering subconscious effects, along with the very poor condition of the associated "core musculature" still leaves me with a very inconsistent swing. Any suggestions on swing techniques or exercise programs that might be effective. I realize this is a very complicated and involved question, but any random thoughts you might have would be greatly appreciated.

 

[welshdentist]

Art, I have been dealing with a herniated L4/5 and related spinal stenosis. It has wreaked havoc on my golf swing, as my pivot is so wildly inconsistent that I can see changes in 2-d and would be frightened to see what 3-D looks like (I was on Mike Jacobs AMM system last year) after only 40-50 balls on the range. Cortisone, PT, and 1.1gm of Naproxen have at least made the issue bearable, but the lingering subconscious effects, along with the very poor condition of the associated "core musculature" still leaves me with a very inconsistent swing. Any suggestions on swing techniques or exercise programs that might be effective. I realize this is a very complicated and involved question, but any random thoughts you might have would be greatly appreciated.

Not art but a veteran of herniated discs (neck and back)

I have used Egoscue to solve the pain and avoid major surgery and am now in rehab with a physio who uses the FMS screening to find the weaknesses and imbalances that CAUSED the injury.

Ankles are for mobility, knees stability, hips mobility, lower back stability....

Lower back likely from an issue lower down but it's just my experience of injury. My lower back was caused by immobile hips and tight thoracic spine...

Have a look at

Functional Movement Systems

Gray Cook practically wrote the modern way of prehab/rehab and injury prevention....

 

[Mike Richardson]

So browsing the forum I see a thread about Rickie has appeared following his win with 7 pages already - thinks 'this should be good'. Sure enough Brian's opening post features some really interesting pictures, and a nice description follows shortly after.

Then 6 pages on rate of closure - seriously? All that good stuff and all we can find to discuss is that a particular still (which by the way is very revealing) showing both arms straight must means a high rate of closure. What a waste of a good thread starter.

Brian, can you please put all this RoCk BS in its own thread, then we can start again.

Personally I'd like to know what is it that he does (or doesn't do) to be effective with such deep low hands at the top? Looks to me like a combination of a more out hand path and negative beta followec by late tumble. Am I even close?

Great post Leon. IMO he's just pulling (but not towards the ball) and then tumbling, the negative beta just "happens" because of the angle he is pulling at and his body motion.

My question is, after tumbling so the hands are way inside the club head and releasing, what's the best "feeel" for getting into that great straight arms position?

 

[Dariusz J.]

You are swimming with one hand....

If your little THEORY is correct, you ABSOLUTELY need less speed, less wrist cock delay, less left arm to club angle.

All would reduce the "Rate of Closure" more than anything you think.


You, and all the other low "Rate of Closure" theorists really mean LOOK OF CLOSURE.

Nope, Brian. I mean an universal truth that you apparently do not want to understand -- because it might (I do not know why) interfere with your theories and practice. Speed has nothing to do with it.

I will try one more time -- imagine a circle or oval with infinite number of clubfaces, all set perpendicular to the circle path. In such construct, no matter what happen, no matter what speed of is, the clubface remains always perpendicular to the path. It is enough to set the path in 3D to receive proper trajectory of a ball with basic knowledge of the D-plane.
Now, knowing that anatomy makes it impossible to treat the above scenario as real, we can only imagine this infinite number of clubfaces perpendicular to the plane on a part of this circle. The longer the part of the circle is it is pretty obvious that there are bigger chances to deliver the clubface as we want. Isn't it the truth ?

Dariusz, while I appreciate your position how can you say "current tour pros who themselves suck with consistency and repeatability?" I have played a few guys who were on the mini-tour circuit and I would kill for 70% of their consistency and repeatability.

OK, used big word "suck" again. Depends on a perspective -- e.g. if a guy who does the whole life nothing but hitting golf balls cannot e.g. achieve 50% of FiR -- yes, he sucks in my world. I should better have said -- "not showing what we would expect from them".

Darius, I really do get where you are coming from, and respect your ideas, but you really do seem to think it's the only way and are very abrasive to anyone who disagrees. Hogan was a genius, and the internet is full of people claiming to know why.....some try to charge, some don't. Some can teach it, but it requires time totally change a pattern. Also that may well not be optimal for someone....

And a lot of people should NOT BE TRYING A PIVOT CONROLLED MOTION IF THEIR BODY HAS ISSUES.

You can be overweight and flexible.....

He knew what he was doing, and didn't tell anyone else.

Why not? Why should he, he worked it out himself through hard work....

Also, it was 'his' optimal pattern to play 'his' best golf......

No, you don't, sorry. I never heard about a guy who cannot lead the motion via pivot. Unless some "genius" tells him e.g. it is bad to lift your feet while swinging or you cannot play with a half swing or you should keep your head stationary or similar BS.
If you need further info on me, here you are - I AM UNFLEXIBLE, not only old and fat.

Cheers

 

[Dariusz J.]

Brian,

As promised, found it:

http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter4.pdf

"The tour pros are amazingly good at being consistent with their club path and face angle. Of all the tour pro data I have ever seen, Jim Furyk is the one with the most consistent club path and face angle (about 0.4 degrees in consistency with his driver), and in addition Furyk’s average club path and face angle for the data I have seen are exactly 0 degrees. I am convinced that this is one of the reasons Furyk is always in the top rankings on fairways hit.
Many of the tour pros are far from Furyk’s 0 degree club path/face angle standards. A big part of the pros either hit a small draw or small fade deliberately. Among tour pros, club path ranges from about -6 degrees to +6 degrees. Kenny Perry has an inside-out club path of +6 degrees with his driver and deliberately hits a big draw, while on the other side, Colin Montgomery has an outside-in club path of around -6 degrees on his drives and deliberately hits a big fade."

Just to add -- I think we all agree whom to choose (without measuring, only via video is enough to judge this) when you all need to point out one player with slowest RoC from Tour. I bet 90% would think exactly about Furyk (who IMO can have even slower RoC than Hogan had post-secret).

Cheers

 

[JThompson]

While I appreciate and somewhat fascinated with the science of flexibility and biokenetics I think we have hijacked this thread. . . so. . . Lets get back to talking specifically about Fowler's swing and release.

Earlier in this thread others have surmized that a high RoC during the release of the club coming down into impact will cause a golfer to to be less consistent, WITH SOME TYPES of pivots this could possibly be true. But not with Fowler's. He uses his "pivot stall" (not at all what it is, but we will call it that) to throw, in order, his shoulders/arms/hands into impact resulting in a very repeatable consistent clubface orientation. I see it like this, assuming a consistent back swing and vertical swing plane the rapid rotation of his hips leading to the rapid decline of said rotation acts as a stop/trigger for his clubface rotation. As soon as his hip rotation slows his body/subcounsious knows exactly where that clubface needs to be to execute the shot he desires. Becuase of this action, I believe, Fowler's rate of closure at impact or just before impact to be just as slow as most tour players. (not that it matters)

The bottom line is this ---> I don't care how fast the clubhead is rotating. As long the golfer has educated his/her hands to know the point in the pivot at which impact occurs. Obviously, Fowler's pivot, has a very distinct signal of impact.

 

[leon]

Brian,

As promised, found it:

http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter4.pdf

"The tour pros are amazingly good at being consistent with their club path and face angle. Of all the tour pro data I have ever seen, Jim Furyk is the one with the most consistent club path and face angle (about 0.4 degrees in consistency with his driver), and in addition Furyk’s average club path and face angle for the data I have seen are exactly 0 degrees. I am convinced that this is one of the reasons Furyk is always in the top rankings on fairways hit.
Many of the tour pros are far from Furyk’s 0 degree club path/face angle standards. A big part of the pros either hit a small draw or small fade deliberately. Among tour pros, club path ranges from about -6 degrees to +6 degrees. Kenny Perry has an inside-out club path of +6 degrees with his driver and deliberately hits a big draw, while on the other side, Colin Montgomery has an outside-in club path of around -6 degrees on his drives and deliberately hits a big fade."

Just to add -- I think we all agree whom to choose (without measuring, only via video is enough to judge this) when you all need to point out one player with slowest RoC from Tour. I bet 90% would think exactly about Furyk (who IMO can have even slower RoC than Hogan had post-secret).

Cheers

Darius, all this proves is that he hits it consistently straight, whilst other players hit it constantly bent! It says NOTHING about closure rates, which you cannot even guess, to the nearest 1000 degrees per second, from video. And even if you could, you wouldn't be able to tell the rate of change of rate of closure (angular acceleration) which I expect is just as important. RoC isn't constant, so two players with identical numbers over some magical period that you want to identify could have totally different numbers at impact.

Folly!

 

[Dariusz J.]

Darius, all this proves is that he hits it consistently straight, whilst other players hit it constantly bent! It says NOTHING about closure rates, which you cannot even guess, to the nearest 1000 degrees per second, from video. And even if you could, you wouldn't be able to tell the rate of change of rate of closure (angular acceleration) which I expect is just as important. RoC isn't constant, so two players with identical numbers over some magical period that you want to identify could have totally different numbers at impact.

Folly!

Did you read the discussion before ? I am tired with repeating the same again.

The above quote about Furyk says he are very consistent and one does not need to be Galileo to see with bare eyes how long is the part of the circle where his clubhead stays square to the arc. Such things like differences between Furyk and Fowler can be seen bare eyed by kids if you explain what to see.
Are you really that naive to believe Furyk hit just once or twice during this experiment ? Nope, he must have hit it multiple times showing that not only he is able to deliver the clubface angle and path angle close to 0 degrees but also he is capable to do it very consistently = almost each time. Do you think Tuxen would have mentioned Furyk's name (as the only one of bunch of pros) if he was capable to deliver numbers close to 0 only in 20 or 50 or even 70 % of times ? Think !

Cheers

 

[Dariusz J.]

While I appreciate and somewhat fascinated with the science of flexibility and biokenetics I think we have hijacked this thread. . . so. . . Lets get back to talking specifically about Fowler's swing and release.

Earlier in this thread others have surmized that a high RoC during the release of the club coming down into impact will cause a golfer to to be less consistent, WITH SOME TYPES of pivots this could possibly be true. But not with Fowler's. He uses his "pivot stall" (not at all what it is, but we will call it that) to throw, in order, his shoulders/arms/hands into impact resulting in a very repeatable consistent clubface orientation.

Very well, I'd accept such argument provided:
a. Fowler's accuracy and repeatability is top notch;
b. there is a method of making the stall automatic obviously other than meeting biolimits in hard structure (joints).

As for me, I believe he's just a well-trained guy with a lot of talent for dealing with timing issues. Mickelson-like.

Cheers

 

[natep]

D,

Its obvious that Furyk keeps the clubface "squarer" to the arc longer post impact than most do. But what about the area say 5 inches before impact to impact itself. How do we know that Fowler doesnt have the same roc during this period as Furyk?

 

[ekennedy]

This is ridiculous.

The kid can flat out play golf. He isn't mechanical, plays blades, doesn't look at video and practices by hitting every club in the bag through two alignment sticks placed 4 inches apart.

And he's not reading this disparaging thread.

 

[cwdlaw223]

Hopefully Brian will shed some light with a video on the look of closure rates as opposed to the rate itself.

What if a clubface looks "stable" but closes down at a faster than a clubface that "doesn't look stable"? That would blow all of the ROC issues out of the water.

 

[Dariusz J.]

D,

Its obvious that Furyk keeps the clubface "squarer" to the arc longer post impact than most do. But what about the area say 5 inches before impact to impact itself. How do we know that Fowler doesnt have the same roc during this period as Furyk?

The same. Go here and have a look by clicking you'll make the pics larger):

Biokinetic Golf Swing Theory: Furyk's Case

Besides, mechanically it would be very difficult to keep the clubhead square to the arc just after impact; IMO, it would suggest a conscious hold-off movement.

This is ridiculous.

The kid can flat out play golf. He isn't mechanical, plays blades, doesn't look at video and practices by hitting every club in the bag through two alignment sticks placed 4 inches apart.

And he's not reading this disparaging thread.

Yeah, so bring here everyone who can play golf, no matter how timing-prone or not are swing motions. I bet people will learn a lot without confusions.

Noone wants to change Fowler's swing. I just think bringing him as a general model for golfers of all sort is pointless and dangerous (unless there are specific microscale cases) because the vast majority of people neither have so much time to spend to practice nor talent to deal with timing issues.
Do you think I'd feel I need to chime in if Brian chose someone with less RoC swing ? If you do this is wrong.

Cheers

 

[tbone1065]

A very good and intelligent post. Judging from the number of likes from my adversaries in the discussion they did not understand it fully.

Assuming you're 100% right, we can draw the following conclusions:

- Hogan worked a biokinetic pattern that ensured the most repeatable and effective impact because he had to with his very tough clubs;

- today's game does not require such kinetic efficiency and repeatability because a. conditions are different, b. equipment is different; thus, biokinetic patterns of today serve to a bit different goals than repeatability;

Now a question: if today's hackers cannot find any consistency and repeatability and are spreading shots ewerywhere despite an easy-to-hit forgiving equipment -- what should they do ? go towards patterns that already proved to be satisfactory in this goal (Hogan) or go towards current tour pros who themselves suck with consistency and repeatability ?

The answer is more than clear.

Cheers

Darius, don't you have some kids to chase off of your lawn?
Seriously, though, this is 2012. We are seeing the very best golfers in the world dismantling 7600 yard golf courses with greens running 12-13 stimp. If Hogan were playing today, he would need to adapt to today's game. Every game, from golf to ice hockey, has seen incredible changes from 50 years ago. Its called progress and I suggest you get on board.